Originally Posted by Check Essential

Did they really propose getting ALPA costs under control by whacking LEC expenses and not even mention that hydra-headed dues-eating monster in Herndon?

Originally Posted by johnso29

I'm not arguing that some guys haven't moved much. That was never my point. I do have more people under me know then when the arbitrated list was released though. Over twice as many people to be exact.

My point was that people in your position haven't seen much movement for a number of reasons. The two biggest IMO being bankruptcy and 9/11. To further emphasize my point, I stated that people shouldn't expect a ton of movement until the Age 65 retirements start anyway. daldad is complaining because we are supposedly shrinking, & my point was what else did you expect? Two Legacy carriers merged in order to save costs and increase profitability. To think that we would merge and then magically grow organically is foolish IMO. It defeats the purpose of the merger.

Add to that the last 10 years have been worse for growth rather then better. 9/11, SARS, the housing crash, the bank crash, the market crash, one of the worst recessions we've ever seen. UAL parked 100 airplanes and furloughed 1500 pilots. Continental furloughed, UsAir furloughed, ATA, Pace, Skybus, Aloha, to name of few went out of business. I know the lack of projected growth and upward movement is tough to swallow, but it's been A LOT worse for a lot of other people.

There are many other factors that have contributed to the lack of progression, not just mergers, codeshares, & JV's. JMHO

Originally Posted by tsquare

Would that include weekends and holidays? Many of us DO work on holidays, and things DO happen then too believe it or not.

Originally Posted by gloopy

It couldn't have been ignorance. The "separate certificate trick" has been a pilot issue for a long time and even a DCI issue going back to at least 2004 with Independance Air. Mesa and Republic pilots got contractual protections against the separate certificate trick for their own holding companies a while ago. Yet our lawyers "missed" that? They missed the same trick with RAH that the RAH pilot group already had in their own contracts? Really? How is it reasonable to believe that "mistake" wasn't intentional?

Not a chance. That was no oversight, it was intentional. When finally cornered into admitting the extremely obvious (which some will try to deny) they will eventually morph into chaff popping arguements like "yeah, well, sure, but see we had to do it because of the DCI wholly owned airlines..." despite the fact that it is a separate issue entirely.

If XYZ airlines flies non permitted aircraft anywhere in their corporate structure or holding company they either need our permission on a case by case basis to do so, or else they must park them immediately unless those planes are flown by DL seniority list pilots IAW the DL pilot PWA. That doesn't mean we have to merge with the wholly owned airline(s) any more than we would have to merge with RAH. That is not a merger issue, it is a "you violated our language that was so elementary that several regionals already have said language...OR you are parked and can't fly for us anymore". Its not very complicated.

We aren't done with this issue either. When Jerry "the ego" Atkins tries his desperate manifest destiny pipe dream of running a real airline and whizzes through his billion dollars of fee for departure guaranteed profit easy money, we had better have langauge to pull the plug and let him drown rather than subsidizing him and his "ace dealers" who will limbo pretty low to help their little "start up" make it.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

It wasn't at the time. Flying Tigers (later FedEx, had a 21 year old 727 Captain) both he and his son are friends. Jets brought explosive growth to the carriers in the middle to late 1960's. The "competitive qualifications" back then would shock you. United was hiring with a PPL and training!

Another dear family friend, recently departed, made Captain at Delta in his second year of employment (Capt. Sonny McDowell)

Originally Posted by NuGuy

Heyas T,

Check out the Council 20 update from 9/23. You can find it under the LEC links after you sign into the DALPA site. I won't post it here, since you can find it easily enough. I read it and was almost sick.

Not a rumor. These are active plans under consideration. SOME won't be decided by your elected representatives, but ONLY by the Executive Committee...made up only of MEC Chairmen (yea, the guys/gals not elected by the membership).

We just went through a gigantic ****ing contest (which was unnecessary according to the Parliamentarian) regarding the 3 vs 4 man NC for the second time, and all of a sudden THIS gem pops up at the national level?

Maximum of three negotiators

Of all the potential bloat, they want to cut ONE GUY doing actual work? And how about that timing? Coincidence?

FORTUNATELY this sorta got shot down, otherwise we'd have to hold ANOTHER NC election. It got modded to permit 4 man teams if the company is ponying up for one guy.

Other gems:

Eliminate non-status representatives
Close LEC offices
Potential option to replace the non-status representative with an LEC Executive Administrator (EA)- APPOINTED NOT ELECTED

Read the comments by the Council 20 Chairman. He was concerned not only with the contents of these proposals, but the manner in which they were delivered.

The Compass sale was facilitated by one thing...the relaxation of scope permitting the sale of Compass without a DC-9 replacement on the mainline property.

Let me repeat that...the sale of Compass was PREVENTED from happening unless there was a DC-9 replacement. There was NO facilitation to sell Compass until AFTER the JCBA. THEY COULDN'T SELL COMPASS UNTIL WE LET THEM.

This restriction was present in the fNWA PWA, and in the JCBA, it vanished. It was removed on purpose and was a relaxation in scope no matter how you slice it.

Nu

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Did they really propose getting ALPA costs under control by whacking LEC expenses and not even mention that hydra-headed dues-eating monster in Herndon?

Originally Posted by 1234

Over 50% of us don't work on holidays too.

Sorry, I just think that is a lame excuse to despise those that work for the union on our behalf. Before you get upset, I do think that someone from the union should be contactable on a 24/7 basis, with an actual monitored response time, but I don't think that the entire union leaders and staff need to be sitting in the office on Christmas.

Originally Posted by ExAF

Actually you made MY point. YOU have more people under you (in your seat/base) due to the equipment/personnel shuffling done by the company. I have a couple of more people under me (in my seat/base) for the same reason. BOTH of us are actually closer to the bottom of the list than before due to some 25 or so junior people that have left for greener pastures. Just because our seniority number has gone up doesn't mean we have "moved up." We don't "move up" until we have fresh meat on the senority list under us. We are both stil "x" numbers away from hitting the street. That won't change until we hire. After 2 furloughs, "x" is still the most important number on the seniority list to me and that is the movement I'm concerned about.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I am happy for you that you are senior enough to not work holidays. My seniority is a choice and I am not complaining about that. That being said. We are a 24/7 worldwide operation. There needs to ALWAYS be a point of contact. It is good business for our association to be available. It marginalizes them to not be. Frankly, if something happens on a weekend, ALPA is the LAST thing that enters my mind because I know how difficult it will be to get in touch with anybody.

I don't despise them either. Never said that.