Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,016
Why don't we eliminate trip parking? Just make a provision that once you swap a trip away, you cannot get that specific trip back. Simple fix.
09-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
From my best estimates, with just shy of 10,800 pilots flying the line and given their average seniority multiplied by the pay tables with some assumptions thrown in for benefits and employment costs and so forth I think we're spending just shy of $1.7B on the pilot group.
If we didn't change the ALVs (using Sep 11 numbers) and went to SWA=DC9 pay you're looking at $800M cost increase. Or an increase of $138K average pilot pay (not including benefits, employment costs) to $208K or a $70K increase.
I'm assuming.
If we didn't change the ALVs (using Sep 11 numbers) and went to SWA=DC9 pay you're looking at $800M cost increase. Or an increase of $138K average pilot pay (not including benefits, employment costs) to $208K or a $70K increase.
I'm assuming.
2008: $19 Billion of debt = Approx. $1.5 Billion of debt service
2013: $10 Billion of debt = Approx. $700 Million of debt service (refinanced to better terms)
Difference: Approx. $800 million
2013-2018: 100 737-900ER's "cash accretive from day one"-R. Anderson
Mo' Money to pay down debt!
Even if only $800 Million in reduced debt service:
$800M divided by 12000 pilots = $66,667 PER PILOT.
They can pay us that much right off the bat, its just a matter of how we want the money split up!
09-07-2011, 11:31 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
Because that would require a change to the contract, and the company would make us pay for it. You can bet that the company absolutely loves trip parking. What's not to love? You've got pilots bending over backwards looking for loopholes to allow them to fly 100+ hours for straight pay.
09-07-2011, 11:34 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Warning! Cocktail napkin math below!
2008: $19 Billion of debt = Approx. $1.5 Billion of debt service
2013: $10 Billion of debt = Approx. $700 Million of debt service (refinanced to better terms)
Difference: Approx. $800 million
2013-2018: 100 737-900ER's "cash accretive from day one"-R. Anderson
Mo' Money to pay down debt!
Even if only $800 Million in reduced debt service:
$800M divided by 12000 pilots = $66,667 PER PILOT.
They can pay us that much right off the bat, its just a matter of how we want the money split up!
2008: $19 Billion of debt = Approx. $1.5 Billion of debt service
2013: $10 Billion of debt = Approx. $700 Million of debt service (refinanced to better terms)
Difference: Approx. $800 million
2013-2018: 100 737-900ER's "cash accretive from day one"-R. Anderson
Mo' Money to pay down debt!
Even if only $800 Million in reduced debt service:
$800M divided by 12000 pilots = $66,667 PER PILOT.
They can pay us that much right off the bat, its just a matter of how we want the money split up!
09-07-2011, 11:39 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
09-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
George you are correct with the metric you are using. It is a different table. My point was in direct reference to the tables I posted. Block hrs per pilot. I need to look at the raw form 41 data, but as I recall they only put total block hrs not pilot block hrs on the Form and as a result that metric is skewed.
I also agree with you pilot costs per ASM. It is a good metric to use, but again we are looking at our operation with a ton of augmentation on LH and ULH flights versus a airline with all domestic two man ops. What would be more telling is to break it out wrt to domestic and international two man versus international three and four man ops. Then you can compare apples to apples.
Of course the ops of augmented flights still have the costs associated with them, but the RASM is vastly different.
I also agree with you pilot costs per ASM. It is a good metric to use, but again we are looking at our operation with a ton of augmentation on LH and ULH flights versus a airline with all domestic two man ops. What would be more telling is to break it out wrt to domestic and international two man versus international three and four man ops. Then you can compare apples to apples.
Of course the ops of augmented flights still have the costs associated with them, but the RASM is vastly different.
Change nothing.
No change in our ALV,
No change in our work rules
No change in our staffing
No change in our training backlog
No change in augmented crews
No change in overstaffing on the 777
and increase pilot compensation by 30%
All that would happen is even with all the high cost items at Delta, the pilot portion of CASM would be equal with Southwest.
The difference between DAL and WN has less to do with pilot compensation and more to do with everything else. (Debt, infrastructure, equipment, other employee groups, etc.)
I'm glad we have a sharp team running the ship, improving the CASM with the end result of getting better RASM.
But when we look over the fence we can see that WN has a higher pilot portion of CASM. When you factor in augmented crews at DAL the percentage WN spends in excess of DAL could easily go higher.
I'm saying there is headroom, and if we're all not in training, the headroom grows by another 10 points as seen in the 2009 numbers.
Put another way: If DAL and WN had the same RASM, pilots at Delta are providing 30%+ of the RASM. It's like reverse profit sharing...
Cheers
George
09-07-2011, 12:12 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Ok, let me flip it around.
Change nothing.
No change in our ALV,
No change in our work rules
No change in our staffing
No change in our training backlog
No change in augmented crews
No change in overstaffing on the 777
and increase pilot compensation by 30%
All that would happen is even with all the high cost items at Delta, the pilot portion of CASM would be equal with Southwest.
The difference between DAL and WN has less to do with pilot compensation and more to do with everything else. (Debt, infrastructure, equipment, other employee groups, etc.)
I'm glad we have a sharp team running the ship, improving the CASM with the end result of getting better RASM.
But when we look over the fence we can see that WN has a higher pilot portion of CASM. When you factor in augmented crews at DAL the percentage WN spends in excess of DAL could easily go higher.
I'm saying there is headroom, and if we're all not in training, the headroom grows by another 10 points as seen in the 2009 numbers.
Put another way: If DAL and WN had the same RASM, pilots at Delta are providing 30%+ of the RASM. It's like reverse profit sharing...
Cheers
George
Change nothing.
No change in our ALV,
No change in our work rules
No change in our staffing
No change in our training backlog
No change in augmented crews
No change in overstaffing on the 777
and increase pilot compensation by 30%
All that would happen is even with all the high cost items at Delta, the pilot portion of CASM would be equal with Southwest.
The difference between DAL and WN has less to do with pilot compensation and more to do with everything else. (Debt, infrastructure, equipment, other employee groups, etc.)
I'm glad we have a sharp team running the ship, improving the CASM with the end result of getting better RASM.
But when we look over the fence we can see that WN has a higher pilot portion of CASM. When you factor in augmented crews at DAL the percentage WN spends in excess of DAL could easily go higher.
I'm saying there is headroom, and if we're all not in training, the headroom grows by another 10 points as seen in the 2009 numbers.
Put another way: If DAL and WN had the same RASM, pilots at Delta are providing 30%+ of the RASM. It's like reverse profit sharing...
Cheers
George
Again, I completely agree. No really. Many pilots get caught up in CASM as a whole, and not our percentage of it. Yes, of course it all matters to make a business sustainable, but as you illustrate, we need to look at our portion of it.
We are cheaper than WN, and that is exactly where management wanted us in CH11. Now WN is feeling the pressure, just like they wanted them too. There is room in there for significant gains. We agree! My point is that it would be even more prevalent if we broke these two sides of the operation out. Probably so much so, that the company would not want us to see it.
As I have said on the other thread, SWAPA has help foster in this new era with their willingness to undercut, and now they have to live with the world they helped create. As we can see, there are areas that we can gain in, and with good measure. I still think it is sad that we are using SWA and SWAPA rates and benefits are a benchmark given that their idea of pilot compensation is what imploded the industry. (I know, go rant on the other thread)
09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Again, I completely agree. No really. Many pilots get caught up in CASM as a whole, and not our percentage of it. Yes, of course it all matters to make a business sustainable, but as you illustrate, we need to look at our portion of it.
We are cheaper than WN, and that is exactly where management wanted us in CH11. Now WN is feeling the pressure, just like they wanted them too. There is room in there for significant gains. We agree! My point is that it would be even more prevalent if we broke these two sides of the operation out. Probably so much so, that the company would not want us to see it.
As I have said on the other thread, SWAPA has help foster in this new era with their willingness to undercut, and now they have to live with the world they helped create. As we can see, there are areas that we can gain in, and with good measure. I still think it is sad that we are using SWA and SWAPA rates and benefits are a benchmark given that their idea of pilot compensation is what imploded the industry. (I know, go rant on the other thread)
We are cheaper than WN, and that is exactly where management wanted us in CH11. Now WN is feeling the pressure, just like they wanted them too. There is room in there for significant gains. We agree! My point is that it would be even more prevalent if we broke these two sides of the operation out. Probably so much so, that the company would not want us to see it.
As I have said on the other thread, SWAPA has help foster in this new era with their willingness to undercut, and now they have to live with the world they helped create. As we can see, there are areas that we can gain in, and with good measure. I still think it is sad that we are using SWA and SWAPA rates and benefits are a benchmark given that their idea of pilot compensation is what imploded the industry. (I know, go rant on the other thread)
FtB's Dog sums up that thread doesn't it ;-)
Agree on the sad state that we find ourselves in, looking at discount carriers as the measuring stick...and some say thats a stretch...
The MIT data is raw, I agree. Many variables will distort the numbers. But underlying all that is one simple truth: pilot costs aren't even close to being the deciding factor in profitability or lack thereof -- haven't been in a long time...
Cheers
George
09-07-2011, 12:51 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Drunken elk rescued from Swede's apple tree
Published: 7 Sep 11 12:38 CET
A drunken elk desperate for just one more mouthful of fermenting apples lost its balance in the attempt, leaving it stuck in an apple tree in western Sweden.
http://m.thelocal.se/36002/20110907/
Published: 7 Sep 11 12:38 CET
A drunken elk desperate for just one more mouthful of fermenting apples lost its balance in the attempt, leaving it stuck in an apple tree in western Sweden.
http://m.thelocal.se/36002/20110907/
09-07-2011, 01:17 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Its been a weird day. Here's a better one:
Wednesday, September 7, 2011
Arkansas weatherman found laying next to naked dead man in hot tub
Dexter Williams, 24, was found dead in an empty hot tub with a dog collar around his neck.
Arkansas weatherman found laying next to naked dead man in hot tub | Weird News - The BIG One - WTAM 1100
Wednesday, September 7, 2011
Arkansas weatherman found laying next to naked dead man in hot tub
Dexter Williams, 24, was found dead in an empty hot tub with a dog collar around his neck.
Arkansas weatherman found laying next to naked dead man in hot tub | Weird News - The BIG One - WTAM 1100
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