Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-07-2011, 06:51 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
From my best estimates, with just shy of 10,800 pilots flying the line and given their average seniority multiplied by the pay tables with some assumptions thrown in for benefits and employment costs and so forth I think we're spending just shy of $1.7B on the pilot group.
If we didn't change the ALVs (using Sep 11 numbers) and went to SWA=DC9 pay you're looking at $800M cost increase. Or an increase of $138K average pilot pay (not including benefits, employment costs) to $208K or a $70K increase.
I'm assuming.
If we didn't change the ALVs (using Sep 11 numbers) and went to SWA=DC9 pay you're looking at $800M cost increase. Or an increase of $138K average pilot pay (not including benefits, employment costs) to $208K or a $70K increase.
I'm assuming.
09-07-2011, 07:07 AM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,747
Just a note, if you're trying to "E-Verify" your citizenship in Self-Service, the "Confirm" button didn't seem to work in Firefox. Went into Internet Explorer and it worked fine.
09-07-2011, 07:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
The problem is not with how they arrive at the data, but what the airlines submit on their Form 41. I have been trying to get a true breakout of our augment ops as well as stage length for aircraft type, and to date no one will has that information in a public source.
In response to you last point, it is my belief that adjusted data will make our case. Form 41 data is where the problem is. Now you can take a bid package and do the math yourself but that is time consuming. I can venture to guess what it is base on our summer 2011 block hrs and active pilots that were line flying, but alas some of that data is not publicly disclosed, so posting that info in a no, no. ( I will say that my rough math puts our block hrs per pilot over that of a SWA pilot)
In response to you last point, it is my belief that adjusted data will make our case. Form 41 data is where the problem is. Now you can take a bid package and do the math yourself but that is time consuming. I can venture to guess what it is base on our summer 2011 block hrs and active pilots that were line flying, but alas some of that data is not publicly disclosed, so posting that info in a no, no. ( I will say that my rough math puts our block hrs per pilot over that of a SWA pilot)
It's right there in plain sight (and we ought to use the data):
2010 Production
(for every dollar spent on pilot pay, heres how many ASMs were produced)
DAL 93.2 $/ASM
SWA 70.6 $/ASM
That means SWA got 32% fewer ASMs from every dollar of pilot pay than Delta did in 2010.
-SWA doesn't have augmented crews
-SWA doesn't make the same contributions
-SWA made lots of money
Clearly, pilot pay isn't the factor to running a highly profitable company.
But it can be an anchor on a poorly run company.
let's see if I can make my point using some other numbers:
AS 83 $/ASM
AMR 86.4 $/ASM
Both American and Alaska show relatively low production on the bottom scale of their respective peer groups. Yet, you would never know one of these is making record profits and the other near bankruptcy looking at these numbers.
My take -- this is a good metric.
"The street" looks at metrics like ASM CASM and RASM to determine the efficiency and production of an airline.
Dollars spent/ASM on pilot compensation directly affect RASM a key metric measuring an airlines productivity.
Cheers
George
09-07-2011, 08:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Question from a guy that is obviously new to "the game":
What is trip parking?
What is trip parking?
09-07-2011, 08:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
FTB, the required number on the reserve available takes into account that most of our trips are augmented crews. I'm in my 6th year on the 777 and I have never trip parked but I know some are doing it. I really don't think trip parking is a factor on this jet because on the Capt side there are very few trips that appear on open time,most days there are zero. I would like to see some avenue that would allow our pilots to pick up to the monthly max but I also realize that people in he'll want ice water.
09-07-2011, 08:07 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Thank you for correcting me
You're arguing apples, and I'm talking about oranges. The 6.5 TFP is pay for the pilots. The company doesn't want to pay that, that's been negotiated. Very rarely do they fly a trip that is less than 6.5 trips a day, occasionally reserves do when they have to adjust a trip for the reserve. They don't build trips that are worth less than 6.5 trips a day.
What I'm talking about is the number of pilots that would be here if we did away with ALV caps. If SW limited the amount of hours that could be flown, or credited or whatever metric you want to use, they would have many more pilots.
If Delta does away with limits on how much an individual can credit, what do you honestly think would happen. There would be guys flying to the FAR limits.
A lot of guys.
And when talking about productivity, what I said is what it is. They don't carry extra pilots. They have an incredibly lean structure. They count on guys picking up time. The place would fall apart if they didn't. They don't carry extra reserves. I'll say it again, reserves fly every day they are available! There is no going to the sim because you haven't flown for 90 days.
They also have the Lance Captains, who are senior F/Os who are captain qualified and can pick up trips as Captains. Those guys fight over open time. How many Captain spots do you think that costs? They cut their own group off at the nuts in so many ways it's not funny.
I stand by all of my statements, and it's logically sound to me. Get rid of the ALV limits=guys on the street.
(I respect most of what you post Scambo, this one just got me.)
You're arguing apples, and I'm talking about oranges. The 6.5 TFP is pay for the pilots. The company doesn't want to pay that, that's been negotiated. Very rarely do they fly a trip that is less than 6.5 trips a day, occasionally reserves do when they have to adjust a trip for the reserve. They don't build trips that are worth less than 6.5 trips a day.
What I'm talking about is the number of pilots that would be here if we did away with ALV caps. If SW limited the amount of hours that could be flown, or credited or whatever metric you want to use, they would have many more pilots.
If Delta does away with limits on how much an individual can credit, what do you honestly think would happen. There would be guys flying to the FAR limits.
A lot of guys.
And when talking about productivity, what I said is what it is. They don't carry extra pilots. They have an incredibly lean structure. They count on guys picking up time. The place would fall apart if they didn't. They don't carry extra reserves. I'll say it again, reserves fly every day they are available! There is no going to the sim because you haven't flown for 90 days.
They also have the Lance Captains, who are senior F/Os who are captain qualified and can pick up trips as Captains. Those guys fight over open time. How many Captain spots do you think that costs? They cut their own group off at the nuts in so many ways it's not funny.
I stand by all of my statements, and it's logically sound to me. Get rid of the ALV limits=guys on the street.
(I respect most of what you post Scambo, this one just got me.)
How do we see the SWA and SWAPA model as the way to go?
09-07-2011, 08:09 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
From my best estimates, with just shy of 10,800 pilots flying the line and given their average seniority multiplied by the pay tables with some assumptions thrown in for benefits and employment costs and so forth I think we're spending just shy of $1.7B on the pilot group.
If we didn't change the ALVs (using Sep 11 numbers) and went to SWA=DC9 pay you're looking at $800M cost increase. Or an increase of $138K average pilot pay (not including benefits, employment costs) to $208K or a $70K increase.
I'm assuming.
If we didn't change the ALVs (using Sep 11 numbers) and went to SWA=DC9 pay you're looking at $800M cost increase. Or an increase of $138K average pilot pay (not including benefits, employment costs) to $208K or a $70K increase.
I'm assuming.
09-07-2011, 08:11 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I do agree that the staffing was slightly fat, but they had a reason for that, reality is that the 744 is doing the MAC flying not the 777.
09-07-2011, 08:15 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Not sure I agree.
It's right there in plain sight (and we ought to use the data):
2010 Production
(for every dollar spent on pilot pay, heres how many ASMs were produced)
DAL 93.2 $/ASM
SWA 70.6 $/ASM
That means SWA got 32% fewer ASMs from every dollar of pilot pay than Delta did in 2010.
-SWA doesn't have augmented crews
-SWA doesn't make the same contributions
-SWA made lots of money
Clearly, pilot pay isn't the factor to running a highly profitable company.
But it can be an anchor on a poorly run company.
let's see if I can make my point using some other numbers:
AS 83 $/ASM
AMR 86.4 $/ASM
Both American and Alaska show relatively low production on the bottom scale of their respective peer groups. Yet, you would never know one of these is making record profits and the other near bankruptcy looking at these numbers.
My take -- this is a good metric.
"The street" looks at metrics like ASM CASM and RASM to determine the efficiency and production of an airline.
Dollars spent/ASM on pilot compensation directly affect RASM a key metric measuring an airlines productivity.
Cheers
George
It's right there in plain sight (and we ought to use the data):
2010 Production
(for every dollar spent on pilot pay, heres how many ASMs were produced)
DAL 93.2 $/ASM
SWA 70.6 $/ASM
That means SWA got 32% fewer ASMs from every dollar of pilot pay than Delta did in 2010.
-SWA doesn't have augmented crews
-SWA doesn't make the same contributions
-SWA made lots of money
Clearly, pilot pay isn't the factor to running a highly profitable company.
But it can be an anchor on a poorly run company.
let's see if I can make my point using some other numbers:
AS 83 $/ASM
AMR 86.4 $/ASM
Both American and Alaska show relatively low production on the bottom scale of their respective peer groups. Yet, you would never know one of these is making record profits and the other near bankruptcy looking at these numbers.
My take -- this is a good metric.
"The street" looks at metrics like ASM CASM and RASM to determine the efficiency and production of an airline.
Dollars spent/ASM on pilot compensation directly affect RASM a key metric measuring an airlines productivity.
Cheers
George
I also agree with you pilot costs per ASM. It is a good metric to use, but again we are looking at our operation with a ton of augmentation on LH and ULH flights versus a airline with all domestic two man ops. What would be more telling is to break it out wrt to domestic and international two man versus international three and four man ops. Then you can compare apples to apples.
Of course the ops of augmented flights still have the costs associated with them, but the RASM is vastly different.
09-07-2011, 08:19 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Line holder(A) has a buddy(B) that takes a trip off of his line, and adds it to their line. Pilot A picks up a trip taking him to ALV+15, where he can no longer pick up out of the pot, and then swaps his original trip back to his line allowing him flying well above max pickup of ALV+15. Pilot B then just picks up a trip to get to ALV+15.
What it allows is someone to use the swap board and its functions; which do not have a max pickup limit, to allow someone go park a trip for the WS award function that looks at your current line and ALV+15.
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