acl65pilot

I am telling you who he/she is referring to, not that they said it. I am not a MSP pilot and have not talked to their Reps in months. I will submit that I liked them when I had a chance to interact with them.

Everyone has been going around on this board not saying who it was that made this statement, and all I am telling you is what I heard was the source of that statement. I never tried to ask any of them directly.

It really is the responsibility of the MSP pilots to ask their reps where they stand. Election time is now, so there is no time like the present. Also the training council and LAX are up for LEC Rep elections.

capncrunch

Maybe he means "voodoo economics" in the sense that ALPA cannot achieve it. What they can get, once expectations have been lowered sufficiently, will be referred to as "trickle down".

DAL 88 Driver

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManager

Winner. Especially the reference to the recent CVG road show and the RH dog and pony act of spreading FUD. Fear a furlough of 1500 pilots if you ask for SWA pay/W2.


Direct quote from the DALPA Comm Chair:

"I thought the explanation you received at the CVG road show yesterday was pretty complete. SWA pilots make a large W2 because they have a pay rate that is multiplied by a lot of hours. It was also explained that were we to eliminate the ALV and other constraints to obtain that kind of productivity here, we could probably kiss the bottom 1000-1500 guys goodbye."

Direct quote from RH:

"So what I said at the road show is that you should be careful what you wish for. If you want to generate higher W-2's by flying more hours, then you will run out of block hours when you get to the bottom of the list. That means fewer 747 Captains, fewer A330 Captains, all the way down the line until you lose the bottom 1000-1500 pilots."

TheManager

In regards to RH, did he, or did he not, state: SWA parity would require 1500 less pilots? True or false.

That, my DALPA acolyte, is planting FUD among the bottom 1500+ folks.

And for the record, not a DPA apologist. I would say more of a reform minded pilot that believes DALPA needs a reboot first and then a removal if that fails.

Fact is, ALPA will more than likely solve that by becoming irrelevant due to ongoing litigation and potential bankrupting damages.

sailingfun

It would be stupid to publish the survey. Management would love to have the results. On some things there has to be trust. If you are saying that all the reps would get together and agree to lie about the survey to the pilots they represent then I guess your going to believe you were cheated. I don't know all the reps but I know enough to know their character and that will not happen.
Besides, If they published the results and its not what you want then you will just say they faked the publication.

newKnow

Sailing,

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth that just aren't there. At this point, I am just asking questions and am not going after you, my reps, ALPA, or anyone else.

If I were to go after someone, it would come in paragraphs, not sentences.

acl65pilot

That may be true because most of their line pilots pack in the hrs to FAR max. Go look at the MIT statistics, and you can see the differences in block hrs per pilot per month. There is also a table in those charts that tells you how many more or how many less pilots you need to hit another airlines block per pilot numbers. (Last time I checked they did not break out the international block hrs and the staffing ratios for them, and because of this, the numbers may be slightly off)

What is reality, is most pilots that want to fly here, do, whether it be though trip parking, swapping or picking up. Therefore I suspect that our company would like to change our staffing model, but for all intents and purposes would not result in less staffing, unless you mandated a min hours per month per pilot. (No way)

What seems to be omitted here as well, is reserve pilots can pick up flying and pay, they have a better min day etc. If you really want to make the comparison and make it mean something we need to realize that a lot of our block time is with augmented crews; which skews the statistics, we have a DPA, not a min day and a SWA pilot does not fly a 10:30 three day, reserve pilots can pick up flying over guarantee, as well as many other things.

I suspect a Hourly rate of SWA+ a few points with a min day not a dpa, same pay for line holders and reserves, DH days count as a min day, etc, the W-2's would be extremely close.

There is only so much efficiency that a corporation can eek out of a pilot group. SWA's will go down with the FT/DT. Their pilots' ability to pick up will be cut in over half and their staffing model will be totally done away with. I think it is very dangerous ground to try to mimic their productivity when in most cases, pilots here work a lot more than they do. It is the multipliers that make the W-2's differ. Most line holders I know fly to ALV+15 and then GS if they can. We are our own worst enemies when it comes to this. It would be sold as no furloughs, but in reality the group could shrink as we retire.

SWA has a model that works for them, but remember that it has also undercut every other pilot group out there. It has forced other airline management teams to make the turnip bleed more, we do not really want to add to that.

sailingfun

I believe the MD88 is a valid comparison with SW and should be the baseline aircraft. I don't however get the math on your pay raise numbers. Going into the contract our MD88 rate will be 168 an hour. The SWA rate will be around 212 an hour. We get 4 percent more DC so adjusted that is just over 174 an hour. It takes about a 21 percent raise to get to SWA if you use the MD88 as a baseline.
I know your going to say they get so many more hours then we do. When you go to mediation you have to back that up. The facts wont support you. I got a kick out of guys using the SW pamphlet to the Airtran guys picking parts and then miss representing them. Here is a example. SW lines average 12 to 13 days a month. Very true. Delta lines are about the same on average. Good ones are as few as 9 days bad ones 15 or 16. Then they state the average Captain makes 226,000 a year at SW. Also true. The problem is the average guy does not do that working 12 to 13 days. That 226,000 number is because most SW guys pick up extra time as do most Delta guys. We had one guy compare the 70 hour reserve numbers with the average numbers at SW. Not a valid comparison. The average Delta pilots gets almost 1100 hours pay a year. Some a lot less and some a lot more but that is the average. That average also floats way up and down depending on staffing however it does the same at SW. Thats why there were so many upset FO's in 2009 at SW. No extra flying. The exact same situation existed at Delta. Big paycut for many guys.
I would like to see SW wages on the 88 as a baseline in this contract. In addition I would like to see some changes in work rules and sick and retirement. Sick leave needs to go back to the old policy. The current policy is purely punitive as a result of the grievance we won. Retirement needs to go to 16 percent. The reserve guarantee needs to go back to floating with the ALV. 23k needs to be changed so replacement flying comes after reserves are used but ahead of GS's. There are a lot of other small things I want improved however I also fear we get into a past contract syndrome where we open for so many items the process bogs down. American did exactly that.
I would like to see the MEC prioritize the top 30 items from the surveys and go to management with just those 30 items. That gets rid of any excuse from management to the NMB on why things are taking so long. They can't go to the NMB and say that we opened for 1156 changes and it takes time.

DAL 88 Driver

The reason you don't get it is because you're not making the same comparison I am. I'm looking at W-2. That is the metric that mostly determines the standard of living a pilot can provide for himself and his family. The DC contribution isn't a factor in that comparison. Also, I believe SWA pilots get a raise in between now and 2012 too. I'm making a comparison of how things stand today. Looking at 2012 shouldn't change the percentage much if any. The math is extremely straightforward. Our average rate (MD-88 and MD-90) for a 12 year Captain is currently $163. I am making the assumption that the average MD-88/90 Captain is flying 80 hours per month. I doubt it's any higher than that. From that point, it's a very easy comparison. The published number for pay for an average SWA Captain (note: not a 12 year Captain, just an average SWA Captain) is over $230,000. To bring our MD-88 Captain making $156,480 up to $234,000 requires a 50% increase. Simple math. Apples to apples comparison of FLIGHT PAY.

Your "facts" are inaccurate, sailingfun. Here's what the "SWA pamphlet" stated. Compare it against what you just wrote. You're wrong.
__________________________________________________ __

• Industry leading B737 Pay Rates. SWA Captains average over $230,000 and First Officers average over $140,000.

• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged 105 “Trips For Pay” (TFP) per month, or about 1260 TFP per year.

• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged just over 18 days off per month.

• Per Diem rates are among the highest in the industry: $2.15 per hour away from base.

• SWAPA considers our Duty and Trip Rigs to be the strongest in the industry, as they protect pilot productivity and efficiency.

• Minimum Daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP; Ex., a 3-day trip pays a minimum of 19.5 TFP.

• Duty hour rig is .74 TFP per hour, minimum.

• Reserve guarantee is 90 TFP per month; but actual
months pay average around 105 TFP.

• Reserves are allowed to pick-up extra flying.

• Holidays pay 150 percent.

• Open Time trips pay up to 150 percent.

• Junior “forced” assignment pays 200 percent.

DAL 88 Driver

You mean the MIT statistics from this guy?

"Prior to accepting his research position at MIT, Swelbar spent 25 years in the consulting world with a focus on airline labor cost restructuring..."

Why don't you ask RA and/or EB for their statistics too. I'll bet they'd be happy to provide you all the statistics you want that show how little we should expect in pay increases.