Originally Posted by forgot to bid

I agree with Check here. Everything always seems to be centered upon managing expectations downward and it'd easily work if it were not for that one testy thing none of us can ignore... to make the pay of the little jet you're going to need to fly overtime in the big jet:



It's nice when the 800 lb gorilla in the room is willing to talk trash to make sure you hear them.

The simple truth is, either our company needs to admit they're not as good as Southwest Airlines, or our union needs to admit their not as good as the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association or we need to just admit we're not as good as Southwest pilots.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

If 50%+1 are for a better contract in 2012 with higher pay and stronger scope then we're not fractured even if some want to hire a different agent to get it done. The mission is not fractured.

The question is, if you want SWA scope (as in no DCI or AS) and [SWA] pay at MD88 levels, which camp to you go to right now?

ALPA or DPA?

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Here this is what I want, new Section 1.C:

C. Scope
1. All flying performed by or for the Company or any affiliate will be performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines pilot seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of this PWA.

2. Section 1 C. 1. includes without limitation all passenger flying, cargo flying, freight flying, positioning flights and ferry flights (scheduled and non-scheduled, revenue and non-revenue) and non-scheduled flights.

3. There will be no contracting or subcontracting of any Company flying to any other air carrier or performance of Company flying by pilots of any other air carrier.

And new Section 3:

1. SWA pay scales for the MD88 plus 15%, all other categories adjusted in proportion using current ratios in the current contract.

2. Exception, if 717 pay at SWA is equal to 737 pay then the DC9 will be SWA pay plus 15% and all other categories adjusted in proportion using current ratios in the current contract.

And new Section 29:

1. Find Newk. He has gone missing.

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy

IF the rep said that, and I still have my doubts, his pilots are free to begin a recall effort. That is below even MY personal minimums, and I'm a kool-aid drinker.

Originally Posted by shiznit

Besides, he is only one vote, both at the MEC and as a pilot. I know my[/SIZE][/SIZE] reps(BOTH) have very high standards and would cancel him out and then some.

Originally Posted by FedElta

Hey Scoop,

You asked the question, so here's my answer : I wish Buzz would wordsmith it for me. I spent more than a few years of my career wishing for the DAL contract at my former employer; all the while my very senior 1011 A, father-in-law had a glorious career looking down at me, and other mere mortals.

Along comes 9/11 and a confluence of bad economics and decision making, and my freight brothers and I became the industry leaders....by default.

Fast forward, DAL gave me a wonderful opportunity to continue my chosen profession, but it is now a shadow of past times. It will not affect me nearly as much as others, but I will do anything to restore DAL to its rightful position, bring respect back to the amazing professional airmen that I'm blessed to fly with, and leave the industry as a better place than I found it.

I will support the will of our unified brothers, and you can count on me to do that. Now is the time for all of us to ensure we have our own stategic preparedness funds in place so that we may support our union without having to make a bad decision based on economics.

We all stand on the shoulders of thse who came before us. What will future generations of DAL pilots say about us ?

In unity,
BG

Originally Posted by slowplay

Can you give me some examples? The most "buddy-buddy" relationship in our industry is SWA. They've got passenger industry leading rates of pay((They are still underpaid for what they do and for what their company makes in profits.SWA management is notorious for delicious and potent Kool-Aid)) , so it doesn't seem to hurt them. FedEx now has a pretty good relationship with their management. Their compensation is top of the heap and they're currently hiring.

Carl will point to UPS as an example of a successful adversarial relationship. They have pilots on furlough, a reported tough work environment and top tier pay.

APA is in transition from a completely adversarial "demand" relationship to a proactively engaged relationship. They've gotten more done on their contract in the last 8 months than they did in the previous 4 years.

So help me understand your point of view, please!This isnt an ALPA or DPA discussion, its about human nature and the effects of getting thing done using a "false" sense of having a good relationship. One example of a pilot group that has allowed management to take advantage of their good will, through threats, is the Frontier Pilots. From what I have read these pilots have overwhelmingly taken concessions and freezes to appease their management (i dont think they are ALPA). In the meantime, management continues to leave the company with bonuses and false promises. My point is that management, including SWA, is using psychological tactics to gain momentum on their sides. In the past years of our history, when ALPA was being shaped, there were many cases of adversarial relationships between management and labor. There were minimal conflict of interests and the LINE was thick: thus the continual upward improvement of contracts (of course the 80's are different). Management tactics (trust me, business is one of my studies) and tools include, now, the use of warm-felt, touch-feely "words" and "actions" to "sway" a particular decision to their side.

I believe the results show engagement to be an effective strategy. There is a place for confrontation and conflict(like NWA '98, Spirit), but it is a tool, not a strategy. When used as a standalone strategy, it doesn't appear to me to be very successful.

jmo, ymmv Maybe you are right, an adversarial relationship is a bit too much. As long as my UNION is not in bed with management, I know I am fine. BTW, I am not impressed with SWA pay or our pay. WE, as an industry, have taken it in the shorts. There will always be a Force Majeur Scenario (insert catastrophe) and it will always cost money to buy oil to run an airline (Revenue creation is not my department, its management's), I just dont see why we would ever have to give up so much for these times (good or bad) especially when management still reals in the high salary and bonuses. Again this is not a Delta or Alpa thing. Its about the TRUTH. If the TRUTH was a GUARANTEED item in discussions then a friendly and open relationship is good. However, I highly doubt there are many truths in our meetings..Its all posturing and trying to squeeze the last bit of juice from the fruit. I want Delta Air Lines to be the BEST, to be the MOST PROFITABLE and to BE THE MOST DESIRED AIRLINE, I also want acknowledgement from the rapid transient managers that Delta Air Lines is the front line employees (the heart and soul of the company--We are at the company for 20+years, they are around for less than a decade). I hope I have made you understand my point.

Originally Posted by exeagle

That's fine if you don't. All you have to do is call him up and ask him what he expects out of our next contract. He'll tell you the same. Let us know what he says.

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy

Confirm you're talking about the MSP LEC Chairman, and I'll do just that.