Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-10-2011, 08:54 PM
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Position: LAX ERA
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07-10-2011, 08:57 PM
Banned
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I appreciate this view point I heard a while back: Why is it that ALPA doesn't believe DL management isn't as good as LUV management? Does LUV just have smarter execs who went to better schools and know how to run a company to achieve greater efficiencies and profit margins that allow them to pay their pilots what they're worth? Or is the truth really that DL execs are actually the truly sharper suits in that they've figured the system out on how to get ALPA to manage DL's pilots' expectations?
07-11-2011, 01:11 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
That is what those poor lassies have to do to put food on the table. You know they do work for O'Leary. He pays em horribly.
Oh btw their pilots are some of the worst paid in europe and they still make more than our guys.
Last figure I was given was over 200K in US dollars a year.
Oh btw their pilots are some of the worst paid in europe and they still make more than our guys.
Last figure I was given was over 200K in US dollars a year.
07-11-2011, 02:07 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It's a great ancillary business. Tell me again how much those 9 dedicated freighters lost us in 2008 before the shutdown?
Point is, FedEx and UPS have created a duopoly in their overnight package delivery business. They ran ABX, DHL, and the USPS into insignficant market share. They are both extremely profitable and are paying some of the highest wage rates in the US piloting business. Their main deck freighter counterparts (Atlas, Kalitta, et. al.) pay less than us on like aircraft. APC shows Atlas at $176 per hour for a 747. Astar and ABX only have a few pilots left after massive furloughs.
Because making fact based emotional arguments ( such as I'm doing the same job) hasn't worked in a long time. If they did Lloyd Hill and APA would be sitting on a 52% payraise right now and we'd pattern off of them. If they did, there wouldn't be such huge disparities in pay for pilots in the same aircraft and industry. There wouldn't be a $70 per hour difference betweek FedEx and Atlas heavy drivers. There wouldn't be a $40/hr difference between USAirways and Delta A320 pilots. Even in your personal history you joined 9E whose contract was substantially beneath CMR and ASA while you guys flew the same airplane. Why was that?
All the points you raise are fact. Look at the recent history of contract negotiations. Tell me what arguments worked and which ones didn't. I'm looking for the winning argument, not the populist and feel good ones.
Point is, FedEx and UPS have created a duopoly in their overnight package delivery business. They ran ABX, DHL, and the USPS into insignficant market share. They are both extremely profitable and are paying some of the highest wage rates in the US piloting business. Their main deck freighter counterparts (Atlas, Kalitta, et. al.) pay less than us on like aircraft. APC shows Atlas at $176 per hour for a 747. Astar and ABX only have a few pilots left after massive furloughs.
Because making fact based emotional arguments ( such as I'm doing the same job) hasn't worked in a long time. If they did Lloyd Hill and APA would be sitting on a 52% payraise right now and we'd pattern off of them. If they did, there wouldn't be such huge disparities in pay for pilots in the same aircraft and industry. There wouldn't be a $70 per hour difference betweek FedEx and Atlas heavy drivers. There wouldn't be a $40/hr difference between USAirways and Delta A320 pilots. Even in your personal history you joined 9E whose contract was substantially beneath CMR and ASA while you guys flew the same airplane. Why was that?
All the points you raise are fact. Look at the recent history of contract negotiations. Tell me what arguments worked and which ones didn't. I'm looking for the winning argument, not the populist and feel good ones.
First the 742 was a maintenance pig, and as a result had to have some very skill mechanics working on it. After the NWA Mechanic strike these skilled workers were gone and the dispatch reliability went though the floor. This was what did in the last contract that NWA had for their dedicated freighter fleet.
Combine this with no fleet renewal and you have a recipe for a failed business model.
There is so much cargo just waiting for be forwarded by anyone with a jet, that upstarts like Southern Air have been able to make a go at it with almost no logistics in place.
The reality is Atlas/Polar is a great buyout target for any airline that wants to do cargo. If I were DAL I would be looking at operating a small fleet of dedicated freighters. I know you disagree with this. It is a fact that there are lucrative contracts in dedicated freight to be had.
I have talked to our cargo managers all over the world and they all state they could fill up a cargo jet multiple times a week. There is a market there, and if done correctly, it would add to the bottom line.
The only thing standing in our way is the order book that AF has for cargo jets......
07-11-2011, 02:12 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Who has the defeatist attitude? You?
ALPA delivered the three richest contracts in US airline history in 2000-2001 (DAL, UAL, AAA). They were destroyed in bankruptcy bargaining in the middle of the decade. The contract history came out 10 days ago. The contract comparison isn't even out yet, much less the contract survey. So you tossing out numbers must mean that's where you're comfortable...
ALPA delivered the three richest contracts in US airline history in 2000-2001 (DAL, UAL, AAA). They were destroyed in bankruptcy bargaining in the middle of the decade. The contract history came out 10 days ago. The contract comparison isn't even out yet, much less the contract survey. So you tossing out numbers must mean that's where you're comfortable...
I say ALPA can do it again, but they have to get their pilots behind them. That starts with adding transparency to the process. This allows trust to enter the game, and when there is trust anything is possible.
The comparison is great, but what is more important is to have the entire crew rowing in the same direction. I flying with different guys every day, and all of them are saying the same thing. I suspect the contract survey results will be an eye opener for DALPA. Guys expectations have matured over the last 18 months.
07-11-2011, 02:22 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I appreciate this view point I heard a while back: Why is it that ALPA doesn't believe DL management isn't as good as LUV management? Does LUV just have smarter execs who went to better schools and know how to run a company to achieve greater efficiencies and profit margins that allow them to pay their pilots what they're worth? Or is the truth really that DL execs are actually the truly sharper suits in that they've figured the system out on how to get ALPA to manage DL's pilots' expectations?
The difference between at LUV is simple. They know their pilots are the employee group that has the best view of the operation. They know that they are integral to their success, and treat them as such.
They got lucky on a long term fuel hedge, and that allowed them many years of enhanced profit and growth.
The only difference between our managers and theirs is the value they place on their employee groups, pilots in particular, and go out of their way to make you value them as your employer and pay accordingly. Both can be bottom line driven, but them crazy Texans also know that you need to spend money in the correct places to make money.
As for DALPA, the correct spirit is there in many of the reps. They just need to be supported by their pilots. Sitting behind a keyboard is great, but it generally does not provide the level of support that is needed. Showing up and holding people accountable is.
07-11-2011, 03:49 AM
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Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
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07-11-2011, 03:57 AM
Can't abide NAI
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Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Since scope sales and RFP's do have material effects on share prices, as well as employment, there is plenty of justification to keep these things under wraps until the deal is substantially done.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-11-2011 at 04:58 AM.
07-11-2011, 04:00 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,590
The difference between at LUV is simple. They know their pilots are the employee group that has the best view of the operation. They know that they are integral to their success, and treat them as such.
They got lucky on a long term fuel hedge, and that allowed them many years of enhanced profit and growth.
The only difference between our managers and theirs is the value they place on their employee groups, pilots in particular, and go out of their way to make you value them as your employer and pay accordingly. Both can be bottom line driven, but them crazy Texans also know that you need to spend money in the correct places to make money.
They got lucky on a long term fuel hedge, and that allowed them many years of enhanced profit and growth.
The only difference between our managers and theirs is the value they place on their employee groups, pilots in particular, and go out of their way to make you value them as your employer and pay accordingly. Both can be bottom line driven, but them crazy Texans also know that you need to spend money in the correct places to make money.
Last edited by johnso29; 07-11-2011 at 04:39 AM.
07-11-2011, 04:25 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Please provide a single example of this ever occurring. And remember, a grievance settlement doesn't count, as those have NEVER been sent to MEMRAT.
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