Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-10-2011, 01:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Retired, again...
Posts: 608
He makes a really good point. It would happen over time. That is why the Junior pilots are Flying International for may of the European airlines. Day turns are mo betta than the international stuff for older pilots.
That said, my point with LBP was this: We have 32(31) jets in the highest paying category, the AF JV (given how they are paid and how we are paid, along with the Import-Export Bank advantages given to foreign carriers) tilts bigger metal going to overseas airlines and 330/ER time being sent our way. It also means we will fly more block hrs in this pay area. Given these facts/observations, it would make sense to 1) look at advantages/disadvantages to a LBP system or some sort of modification to our current tiered system. In other words, put good capital where the lion's share of the growth of our fleet will be.
Also, I know that many people feel that getting 73n/320 rates above the SWA line is doable, but to raise the rates above these jets will be harder due to the industry pay rate averages right now. I disagree as we saw pre CH11 the widebody rates were always well above that of the 73N. The only difference this time is that we are dealing with a different industry. That is also why it is imperative to have the FDX and UPS PWA/CBA's included. They are relevant.
Given these two points, we are at a crossroads of what our future fleet will look like. We need to decide to include the FDX/UPS rates then fight with vigor, or look at a different way of compensating our members. The point is to discuss the issue so you can give pertinent input to your reps. The first step in this in acknowledging what trends the JVs and Alliances have created for US carriers.
That said, my point with LBP was this: We have 32(31) jets in the highest paying category, the AF JV (given how they are paid and how we are paid, along with the Import-Export Bank advantages given to foreign carriers) tilts bigger metal going to overseas airlines and 330/ER time being sent our way. It also means we will fly more block hrs in this pay area. Given these facts/observations, it would make sense to 1) look at advantages/disadvantages to a LBP system or some sort of modification to our current tiered system. In other words, put good capital where the lion's share of the growth of our fleet will be.
Also, I know that many people feel that getting 73n/320 rates above the SWA line is doable, but to raise the rates above these jets will be harder due to the industry pay rate averages right now. I disagree as we saw pre CH11 the widebody rates were always well above that of the 73N. The only difference this time is that we are dealing with a different industry. That is also why it is imperative to have the FDX and UPS PWA/CBA's included. They are relevant.
Given these two points, we are at a crossroads of what our future fleet will look like. We need to decide to include the FDX/UPS rates then fight with vigor, or look at a different way of compensating our members. The point is to discuss the issue so you can give pertinent input to your reps. The first step in this in acknowledging what trends the JVs and Alliances have created for US carriers.
" DAL plus a nickel " was our mantra for the first 28 of my 30 years at FDX. Thanks to 9/11, BK, and several other factors, we finally achieved that goal.
If FDX could pattern off of DAL, reciprocity should help DAL currently.
I know all the red herring arguments of different business models, different industry, etc.
Remember, neurosurgeons make essentially the same big bucks, no matter whose melon they are cutting on......just sayin'.
Regards,
BG
07-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Hey ACL,
" DAL plus a nickel " was our mantra for the first 28 of my 30 years at FDX. Thanks to 9/11, BK, and several other factors, we finally achieved that goal.
If FDX could pattern off of DAL, reciprocity should help DAL currently.
I know all the red herring arguments of different business models, different industry, etc.
Remember, neurosurgeons make essentially the same big bucks, no matter whose melon they are cutting on......just sayin'.
Regards,
BG
" DAL plus a nickel " was our mantra for the first 28 of my 30 years at FDX. Thanks to 9/11, BK, and several other factors, we finally achieved that goal.
If FDX could pattern off of DAL, reciprocity should help DAL currently.
I know all the red herring arguments of different business models, different industry, etc.
Remember, neurosurgeons make essentially the same big bucks, no matter whose melon they are cutting on......just sayin'.
Regards,
BG
I got calls from DL, WN, and FDX (neither of which are our peers??) within 3 weeks of each other, all to do the same top notch job. I expect to be paid as such.
And some people wonder why I'm pretty sure our entrenched core is beyond recovery...
07-10-2011, 02:14 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Probably not. I would say two years or so. When we applied for ATI with V Australia, we included New Zealand. I suspect we could find the loads for thrice weekly service from the US. From ATL would be great, but it will probably be LA. ( I would not see too many flights added to LAX until the terminal remodel is done, and that should take a year)
07-10-2011, 02:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
WN is in the same industry with a different business model. They will be included in the comparison.
Note that the companies that you mentioned are 2 of the 3 more highly paid pilot groups than Delta (UPS is the third). Is there anything else common in those groups other than higher pilot pay?
07-10-2011, 02:20 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Hey ACL,
" DAL plus a nickel " was our mantra for the first 28 of my 30 years at FDX. Thanks to 9/11, BK, and several other factors, we finally achieved that goal.
If FDX could pattern off of DAL, reciprocity should help DAL currently.
I know all the red herring arguments of different business models, different industry, etc.
Remember, neurosurgeons make essentially the same big bucks, no matter whose melon they are cutting on......just sayin'.
Regards,
BG
" DAL plus a nickel " was our mantra for the first 28 of my 30 years at FDX. Thanks to 9/11, BK, and several other factors, we finally achieved that goal.
If FDX could pattern off of DAL, reciprocity should help DAL currently.
I know all the red herring arguments of different business models, different industry, etc.
Remember, neurosurgeons make essentially the same big bucks, no matter whose melon they are cutting on......just sayin'.
Regards,
BG
Yes, FEDEX and UPS were well below the DAL C2K rate. I also have looked at their Widebody rates and achieving what our pilots direct, which is a pay rate commensurate with a good portion of restoration, would be a logical pattern sequence above these rates.
Of course rates are only part of the battle. Work rules and trip and duty regs are the bread and butter that give the rates a multiplier. Even if we topped the FDX rates by 40%, our pilot would get paid less due to the work rule differences.
My point is that we all perform the work, and excluding these carriers is not in any pilots best interest. I also believe we need to include international airlines and their contracts. I could care less what their governments take, we need to look at their gross earnings per year. Their airlines pay this to them, and then the government takes their cut. All of it is supported by the ticket prices that are charged.
07-10-2011, 02:23 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
If you listen to sailing, slow, alfa, and PG, then FDX is not one of our peers.
I got calls from DL, WN, and FDX (neither of which are our peers??) within 3 weeks of each other, all to do the same top notch job. I expect to be paid as such.
And some people wonder why I'm pretty sure our entrenched core is beyond recovery...
I got calls from DL, WN, and FDX (neither of which are our peers??) within 3 weeks of each other, all to do the same top notch job. I expect to be paid as such.
And some people wonder why I'm pretty sure our entrenched core is beyond recovery...
07-10-2011, 02:27 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
FDX is in a different, rational industry, one that only has two real domestic competitors in the whole market. Even though fNWA had a freight division they never included the overnight express carriers in their contract comparison. I am told they will be in ours.
WN is in the same industry with a different business model. They will be included in the comparison.
Note that the companies that you mentioned are 2 of the 3 more highly paid pilot groups than Delta (UPS is the third). Is there anything else common in those groups other than higher pilot pay?
WN is in the same industry with a different business model. They will be included in the comparison.
Note that the companies that you mentioned are 2 of the 3 more highly paid pilot groups than Delta (UPS is the third). Is there anything else common in those groups other than higher pilot pay?
The fact that we do the exact same job as them for a top tier carrier? I think that should suffice. Thank you for proving my point.
07-10-2011, 02:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
07-10-2011, 02:28 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Judging from the feedback I get on the line... this is certainly the case. How do you get a group off their keester that has zero trust in the processes involved, though?
07-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Senior by choice
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 426
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