Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-09-2011, 06:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 852
POS 96 was sold to the pilots with the promise of "unprecedented growth".
Nothing in writing. Just a promise.
ALPA and management pushed hard to get it ratified and it sailed through.
Don't underestimate the persuasive power of the company combined with the ALPA insiders if they decide to work together. They can get damn near anything passed via memrat.
Hopefully enough union guys have realized the truth about outsourcing and their views have "evolved", but --
If the union operatives and mgmt decide they want a scope sale, we're gonna get a scope sale.
And the membership will ratify it.
Nothing in writing. Just a promise.
ALPA and management pushed hard to get it ratified and it sailed through.
Don't underestimate the persuasive power of the company combined with the ALPA insiders if they decide to work together. They can get damn near anything passed via memrat.
Hopefully enough union guys have realized the truth about outsourcing and their views have "evolved", but --
If the union operatives and mgmt decide they want a scope sale, we're gonna get a scope sale.
And the membership will ratify it.
07-09-2011, 06:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
btw, we recalled the 400+ remaining furloughess and hired 3100 pilots in the 5 years after signing that contract. Not unprecedented growth, but pretty substantial. Our company also made record profits (see the contract history) during that period.
07-09-2011, 06:13 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I believe your analysis to be flawed. AF isn't our competition for flying. That was removed from the equation in the JV. The other two alliances and other airlines are our competition.
CMR and ASA have very similar payrates. All of CMR A's are at or near the highest rate, while many of ASA A's are not. CMR's pilot costs (and total labor costs across all work groups) are much higher than ASA's because of their comparitive longevity. So instead of growing like ASA, CMR shrank.
Unless flying at an airline with a unique fleet or training footprint (i.e. all 737, all Airbus), there is no truth to the "lower training costs" associated with LBP. Unless they are rostered by their company (which I really don't want), it only inverts the training pyramid as pilots get senior enough to hold desirable flying.
From a pilot perspective, LPB takes two factors in career decision (pay vs QOL) and converts them to one. That's great for the uber senior...not so much for the junior.
fwiw.
CMR and ASA have very similar payrates. All of CMR A's are at or near the highest rate, while many of ASA A's are not. CMR's pilot costs (and total labor costs across all work groups) are much higher than ASA's because of their comparitive longevity. So instead of growing like ASA, CMR shrank.
Unless flying at an airline with a unique fleet or training footprint (i.e. all 737, all Airbus), there is no truth to the "lower training costs" associated with LBP. Unless they are rostered by their company (which I really don't want), it only inverts the training pyramid as pilots get senior enough to hold desirable flying.
From a pilot perspective, LPB takes two factors in career decision (pay vs QOL) and converts them to one. That's great for the uber senior...not so much for the junior.
fwiw.
On the LBP I am not going to argue that it helps the senior more than the junior, but the junior are looking at it with a keen eye due to the asinine stagnation that they have seen over the last decade. Most are QOL driven and have no desire to do certian flying, and as a result want the pay of WB flying on lower jets. I was actually really surprised to see how many Reps and ALPA guys in general were open to this idea.
I do not know if it is a deal good enough to embark on, but given how the AF JV will work out, the benefit is that we would create more positions at the highest pay. That goes for left and right seats.
07-09-2011, 06:16 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
POS96 was what got me off my duff. What's it going to take you and Lumberg to get off yours?
btw, we recalled the 400+ remaining furloughess and hired 3100 pilots in the 5 years after signing that contract. Not unprecedented growth, but pretty substantial. Our company also made record profits (see the contract history) during that period.
btw, we recalled the 400+ remaining furloughess and hired 3100 pilots in the 5 years after signing that contract. Not unprecedented growth, but pretty substantial. Our company also made record profits (see the contract history) during that period.
07-09-2011, 06:20 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,590
He will not get the reference. The quid has not really been talked about on the board.
As I understood the original report, it was a minimal pay raise & contract extension if we would agree to the scope allowance. The minimal (5 to 10%) has since been jacked through the roof (25% plus). Remember the RFP announcement is talked about by Thanksgiving if not (ironically) Labor Day.
Aside from the cost of setting up a training program, there is not a great difference between the senior DCI pilots and the junior Delta pilots compensation packages that would provide money to reallocate across other areas of the seniority list. I doubt that outsourcing the program would provide anywhere near enough money to give the entire list 2%, much less 25%. (of course it is unlikely we'll ever see the economic analysis that puts price tags on our jobs)
While I do think it is politically possible to put a very large raise in front of the pilots for selling the bottom 1/5th of the list and stagnating the bottom 1/3, very few would break unity for 3%. Further, folks who are willing to call this what it is makes the politics uglier today than it has been in the past when junior pilots believed Comair pilots & 9/11 were responsible for their problems.
ALPA needs to come out and state "no one gets sold." Every member should be able to go to sleep at night expecting the same level of representation.
As I understood the original report, it was a minimal pay raise & contract extension if we would agree to the scope allowance. The minimal (5 to 10%) has since been jacked through the roof (25% plus). Remember the RFP announcement is talked about by Thanksgiving if not (ironically) Labor Day.
Aside from the cost of setting up a training program, there is not a great difference between the senior DCI pilots and the junior Delta pilots compensation packages that would provide money to reallocate across other areas of the seniority list. I doubt that outsourcing the program would provide anywhere near enough money to give the entire list 2%, much less 25%. (of course it is unlikely we'll ever see the economic analysis that puts price tags on our jobs)
While I do think it is politically possible to put a very large raise in front of the pilots for selling the bottom 1/5th of the list and stagnating the bottom 1/3, very few would break unity for 3%. Further, folks who are willing to call this what it is makes the politics uglier today than it has been in the past when junior pilots believed Comair pilots & 9/11 were responsible for their problems.
ALPA needs to come out and state "no one gets sold." Every member should be able to go to sleep at night expecting the same level of representation.
07-09-2011, 06:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
How about we look at straight facts, have a debate, and then 12,500 guys will come to a conclusion? Please.
07-09-2011, 06:29 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Am I the only one who has to go look up the word "klatch"?
07-09-2011, 06:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
07-09-2011, 06:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
STOP. No it wouldn't. They would all be paid at the SAME rate -- Everyone can't be "above average". Meaning those currently at the highest rates subsidize those currently at the lowest rates as we transition. It also removes the "pay or QOL?" decision and turns it into just QOL. Great for the senior guys; but the end result is there will be no more junior categories as at present, meaning it will be many, many years before those clamoring the loudest for LBP will ever hold weekends or holidays off. As with all things - be careful what you wish for.
07-09-2011, 07:19 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
STOP. No it wouldn't. They would all be paid at the SAME rate -- Everyone can't be "above average". Meaning those currently at the highest rates subsidize those currently at the lowest rates as we transition. It also removes the "pay or QOL?" decision and turns it into just QOL. Great for the senior guys; but the end result is there will be no more junior categories as at present, meaning it will be many, many years before those clamoring the loudest for LBP will ever hold weekends or holidays off. As with all things - be careful what you wish for.
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