Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2011, 06:31 PM
Can't abide NAI
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It amazes me the lengths people go to distort history. What happened after C2K at both United and Delta? A little thing called the WORST TERRORIST ATTACK IN HISTORY! An event that conservatively removed 2 trillion from the world economy. But to these history revisionists, it wasn't 9-11 that BK'd UAL and DAL...it was those crazy pilot pay rates in their C2K contracts.
Incredible. We've got to be better defenders of actual history, as opposed to parroting management talking points of why most airlines went bankrupt.
Carl
Incredible. We've got to be better defenders of actual history, as opposed to parroting management talking points of why most airlines went bankrupt.
Carl
Your numbers are way off. In fact, the economic effects of the 9/11 attacks were relatively benign and less than initially anticipated. The massive government spending resulted in quite a bit of offsetting stimulus to our economy. Delta, through its subsidiaries, hired thousands more pilots than it furloughed and retired.
The 2008 financial crises was much worse from an economic standpoint and Delta furloughed no one.
I believe Delta would have likely declared bankruptcy with, or without C2K. Other factors, like over paying for regional airlines, the Comair strike and profligate spending in other areas assured the outcome.
My only contention is that the language of C2K was ill considered and we should not accept status quo in C2012. Section 1 needs to get tossed in favor of inclusive language which defines ALL new flying as ours giving us automatic ownership over any new code share and which recovers outsourced flying as contracts expire.
07-07-2011, 06:34 PM
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Results do matter. But you refuse to acknowledge any results of 9-11.
Carl
07-07-2011, 06:34 PM
Can't abide NAI
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Posts: 12,037
His statement is akin to my stating Jennifer Anniston is in my bedroom, but, it is not Ms. Anniston, but it is a woman.
07-07-2011, 06:37 PM
Can't abide NAI
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Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Exactly! Delta and NWA's bankruptcy were strategic defaults, well planned and executed with the precise synchronous precision illustrated by the Blue Angels. It wasn't 9/11 or C2K. But the concessions to our scope live in perpetuity.
07-07-2011, 06:37 PM
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Bucking Bar, I agree with almost everything you said, EXCEPT the DALPA inner circle. It was a wholesale turnover when JM left and LM took over. One viewed the world through rose colored glasses and landed us in BK; the other viewed the world as it exists and made the most of it. JMO. And I lost my pension to prove it.
9-11 landed us all in bankruptcy court, not rose colored glasses.
Unreal.
Carl
07-07-2011, 06:41 PM
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Bill, our DC plan costs DAL more money on an annual basis than the DB ever did. Because the DB took advantage of market returns which ultimately resulted in minimal required contributions. Once those market returns dried up, they terminated the pension. It was destined to fail, but few realized it. The lump sum provision and run on the bank by the senior guys just guaranteed it.
Carl
07-07-2011, 06:43 PM
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07-07-2011, 06:43 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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The economy went gangbusters from 03 to 07, this industry was starting a recession in 00 and depression from 01 on. We never got to enjoy the good times because once we were in position 08 happened.
The industry is cursed.
As to CEOs, we have a product, seats and we have a seat inventory. Selling units is selling units and they all have fixed and variable costs, debts and interest and people sometimes in unions sometimes not. We should count ourselves lucky if you have a person who likes aviation verses who was it Ron Allen or Leo that hated pilots with a passion?
I have to be honest, I'm happy our marketing campaign includes airplanes and employees, when I was younger commercials and airports were aircraft focused but for years now it's been these abstract artsy fartsy ads like good goes around or even SWA bag ads and shots of swa employees dancing in downtown that try to ignore the product- air transportation.
The industry is cursed.
As to CEOs, we have a product, seats and we have a seat inventory. Selling units is selling units and they all have fixed and variable costs, debts and interest and people sometimes in unions sometimes not. We should count ourselves lucky if you have a person who likes aviation verses who was it Ron Allen or Leo that hated pilots with a passion?
I have to be honest, I'm happy our marketing campaign includes airplanes and employees, when I was younger commercials and airports were aircraft focused but for years now it's been these abstract artsy fartsy ads like good goes around or even SWA bag ads and shots of swa employees dancing in downtown that try to ignore the product- air transportation.
07-07-2011, 06:47 PM
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Buck et al., thank you for the discussion about C2K. Most of us at the bottom of the seniority list aren't around when C2K was negotiated. It obviously seemed to me that there were flaws in C2K, and the apex economic condition that was on the edge of downturn proved fatal to a company that made lots of money, but also spent even more money.
It seems to me the "old" DALPA made the most out of it (sans scope) during that negotiation, and the "new" DALPA is trying to be more prudent, telling us that "We know more than you know, but we can't tell you, so just trust us in leading the way". Either way is not what I want.
History is doomed to repeat itself if we don't learn from it.
It seems to me the "old" DALPA made the most out of it (sans scope) during that negotiation, and the "new" DALPA is trying to be more prudent, telling us that "We know more than you know, but we can't tell you, so just trust us in leading the way". Either way is not what I want.
History is doomed to repeat itself if we don't learn from it.
Carl
07-07-2011, 06:49 PM
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I don't necessarily mind the approach, I mind the results especially when it comes to scope.
RJ's are not good for Delta and they're not good for us and they're not good for DALPA. There only good if you're running for President of ALPA.
See the kid flying the ASA jet and saying good bye to all of the passengers with a I LOVE SWA lanyard as one example.
RJ's are not good for Delta and they're not good for us and they're not good for DALPA. There only good if you're running for President of ALPA.
See the kid flying the ASA jet and saying good bye to all of the passengers with a I LOVE SWA lanyard as one example.
Carl
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