Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Bill, our DC plan costs DAL more money on an annual basis than the DB ever did. Because the DB took advantage of market returns which ultimately resulted in minimal required contributions. Once those market returns dried up, they terminated the pension. It was destined to fail, but few realized it. The lump sum provision and run on the bank by the senior guys just guaranteed it.
80 kts, because:
(1) Margins were better, lots better
(2) Those at the top had integrity and understood market variation was no reason to short change a promised obligation
(3) There were fewer people obtaining payouts and what eventually became an unsustainable pyramid scheme was still in its misunderstood infancy. If Delta had continued organic growth, it would have been easy to pay.
07-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
07-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
1. Demographics - the pilot group was much younger then, with a much lower accrued benefit
2. DAL financial strength - there was no concern that the DB would terminate then, thus no reason for guys to bail
3. C2K - those pay rates coupled with the market down turn resulted in the liabilities growing exponentially, at the same time the assets were going down. Add in people cashing out by retiring while the assets were at the bottom, and the system became doomed.
07-07-2011, 03:48 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Excellent analysis. Better than mine.
07-07-2011, 03:59 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Good post PG- thank you!
Further diversion:
Why FA's have problems using the computer:
Further diversion:
Why FA's have problems using the computer:
07-07-2011, 04:01 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
Buck et al., thank you for the discussion about C2K. Most of us at the bottom of the seniority list aren't around when C2K was negotiated. It obviously seemed to me that there were flaws in C2K, and the apex economic condition that was on the edge of downturn proved fatal to a company that made lots of money, but also spent even more money.
It seems to me the "old" DALPA made the most out of it (sans scope) during that negotiation, and the "new" DALPA is trying to be more prudent, telling us that "We know more than you know, but we can't tell you, so just trust us in leading the way". Either way is not what I want.
History is doomed to repeat itself if we don't learn from it.
It seems to me the "old" DALPA made the most out of it (sans scope) during that negotiation, and the "new" DALPA is trying to be more prudent, telling us that "We know more than you know, but we can't tell you, so just trust us in leading the way". Either way is not what I want.
History is doomed to repeat itself if we don't learn from it.
07-07-2011, 05:01 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Bucking Bar, I agree with almost everything you said, EXCEPT the DALPA inner circle. It was a wholesale turnover when JM left and LM took over. One viewed the world through rose colored glasses and landed us in BK; the other viewed the world as it exists and made the most of it. JMO. And I lost my pension to prove it.
All these years I thought it was bad management, terrorism and the economy.
Its a good thing we have more sophisticated union leadership now. There's always a danger of pilots making too much money again. We desperately need Moak and his team to "view the world as it exists" and keep us from negotiating any more of those excessive pay rates.
07-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
So it was John Malone and over-paid pilots that landed us in bankruptcy?
All these years I thought it was bad management, terrorism and the economy.
Its a good thing we have more sophisticated union leadership now. There's always a danger of pilots making too much money again. We desperately need Moak and his team to "view the world as it exists" and keep us from negotiating any more of those excessive pay rates.
All these years I thought it was bad management, terrorism and the economy.
Its a good thing we have more sophisticated union leadership now. There's always a danger of pilots making too much money again. We desperately need Moak and his team to "view the world as it exists" and keep us from negotiating any more of those excessive pay rates.
07-07-2011, 05:16 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I am on the side of making sure we get the largest raises possible and the highest possible quality of life for me and my family while also taking care of the junior pilots. If we could by magic get the NMB to release us at the amendable date we could force the company into a contract that would be the envy of every pilot in the world. It would be great for me. I suspect the bottom quarter of the seniority list would not like it much when the airline could no long compete to add flying and starting losing it rapidly.
Most pilots posting here are clueless about the contract process and what is involved. One of the things is costing. You have to use accurate numbers or you lose credibility. That will be critical with the NMB.
You can't use a SW number of average hours they fly and then use a Delta number based on 75 hours per month. You have to use the Delta average. Its over 1100 hours a month much like at SW. On the 737 that puts the Average Delta CA around 194k a year plus another 9K more then a SW guy gets in the DC plan. or over 200K. Still that a lot less then SW but not quite what is posted here.
There is a valid argument that the MD88 should be compared with SW. That is however debatable. The company will quickly point out that they agreed to the higher pay rates on the 737NG based on how efficient the airframe was and the extra profit it would generate. That was our position during the 3b6 process on the airframe. Now we are going to reverse that position and base it on seats. That may or may not fly with the NMB.
The bottom line is you can talk all day about SW. They have never generated anything industry leading. I don't really care about SW. I care about Delta and our future contract. I expect to see us get back to our historical quality of life advantage and pay advantage. Trying to make direct comparisons with flawed data is not the right way to start out negotiations.
Most pilots posting here are clueless about the contract process and what is involved. One of the things is costing. You have to use accurate numbers or you lose credibility. That will be critical with the NMB.
You can't use a SW number of average hours they fly and then use a Delta number based on 75 hours per month. You have to use the Delta average. Its over 1100 hours a month much like at SW. On the 737 that puts the Average Delta CA around 194k a year plus another 9K more then a SW guy gets in the DC plan. or over 200K. Still that a lot less then SW but not quite what is posted here.
There is a valid argument that the MD88 should be compared with SW. That is however debatable. The company will quickly point out that they agreed to the higher pay rates on the 737NG based on how efficient the airframe was and the extra profit it would generate. That was our position during the 3b6 process on the airframe. Now we are going to reverse that position and base it on seats. That may or may not fly with the NMB.
The bottom line is you can talk all day about SW. They have never generated anything industry leading. I don't really care about SW. I care about Delta and our future contract. I expect to see us get back to our historical quality of life advantage and pay advantage. Trying to make direct comparisons with flawed data is not the right way to start out negotiations.
Carl
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