Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2011, 09:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 403
FTB,
You are definitely worth that and more. I just want to point out your math isn't quite right because a $50k raise for you would have to equate to an approximately $100k raise for Carl in that big two story boeing. I am all for Carl getting that raise too. I am concerned that we will get proffered a deal that gives us SWA plus rates but we lose scope protections. I know that I would vote no, as most on this board, however, there are a lot of old, senior pilots here that I am afraid would silently vote yes in order to get as much money before retiring and thus pulling up the ladder.
I know that everyone says they are for scope, not going to give an inch, but when it comes down to it, I haven't run across any pilot that actually voted yes for our absolute POS bankruptcy contract at NWA. No-one.
You are definitely worth that and more. I just want to point out your math isn't quite right because a $50k raise for you would have to equate to an approximately $100k raise for Carl in that big two story boeing. I am all for Carl getting that raise too. I am concerned that we will get proffered a deal that gives us SWA plus rates but we lose scope protections. I know that I would vote no, as most on this board, however, there are a lot of old, senior pilots here that I am afraid would silently vote yes in order to get as much money before retiring and thus pulling up the ladder.
I know that everyone says they are for scope, not going to give an inch, but when it comes down to it, I haven't run across any pilot that actually voted yes for our absolute POS bankruptcy contract at NWA. No-one.
07-07-2011, 09:03 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
But if its relative seniority, you won't lose bidding power and there will be more opportunities going forward....
Isn't that what DAL argued in the NWA/DAL SLI?
I'm a way low man on the totem pole so anyone coming in ahead of me will have a potential impact on my future, but I do agree that a relative percentage SLI with adjustments for fleet makeup/percentage wide to narrow would absolutely be fair.
Isn't that what DAL argued in the NWA/DAL SLI?
I'm a way low man on the totem pole so anyone coming in ahead of me will have a potential impact on my future, but I do agree that a relative percentage SLI with adjustments for fleet makeup/percentage wide to narrow would absolutely be fair.
The NWA/DAL SLI was a bit different than a DAL/JBU SLI. You had two like airlines, whereas with JBU that would be an airline that was started in the late 90s.
Logic would have it that considering they didnt exist, no 1998 person with a hire date that is on our list would have a JBU pilot in front of them. Relativity would be fine below that point.
I think the same argument holds for WN/FL... no WN pilot hired before the type when FL was started should have a single FL pilot in front of them.
DAL/HAL I believe Bloch would handle like the recent Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan list. The 767 CA slots would be integrated stovepipe method with us, 767 FO, then 717 CA integrated in the DC-9 stove pipe and 717 FO the same.
07-07-2011, 09:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 403
"Air France splits order between Airbus and Boeing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 7, 2011
Joint venture partner Air France-KLM will split an order for about 100 widebody planes between Airbus and the Boeing Co., the company said.
The decision was announced Wednesday by Chief Executive Officer Pierre Henri Gourgeon in a closed-door hearing at the French national assembly’s commission for sustainable development.
Air France had previously said the order would probably be split, however, more than 180 of 577 French deputies signed a petition pressing Air France to favor French manufacturer Airbus, according to Bloomberg.
Air France operates a fleet of A320s on routes within France and to some European countries, but relies heavily on the Boeing 777 on long-haul flights, the report said.
Airbus and Boeing are each in the process of manufacturing newer long-haul jumbo jets. Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner is scheduled to begin commercial flights soon, while Airbus’s A350 will begin service in 2013, the article said.
Air France is not the first airline to purchase both planes."
Somehow I see no prayer of us ordering a bunch of widebodies like this. Is AF doing something we are not, or are they just more in need of fleet renewal?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 7, 2011
Joint venture partner Air France-KLM will split an order for about 100 widebody planes between Airbus and the Boeing Co., the company said.
The decision was announced Wednesday by Chief Executive Officer Pierre Henri Gourgeon in a closed-door hearing at the French national assembly’s commission for sustainable development.
Air France had previously said the order would probably be split, however, more than 180 of 577 French deputies signed a petition pressing Air France to favor French manufacturer Airbus, according to Bloomberg.
Air France operates a fleet of A320s on routes within France and to some European countries, but relies heavily on the Boeing 777 on long-haul flights, the report said.
Airbus and Boeing are each in the process of manufacturing newer long-haul jumbo jets. Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner is scheduled to begin commercial flights soon, while Airbus’s A350 will begin service in 2013, the article said.
Air France is not the first airline to purchase both planes."
Somehow I see no prayer of us ordering a bunch of widebodies like this. Is AF doing something we are not, or are they just more in need of fleet renewal?
07-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Cheers
George
07-07-2011, 09:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
But if its relative seniority, you won't lose bidding power and there will be more opportunities going forward....
Isn't that what DAL argued in the NWA/DAL SLI?
I'm a way low man on the totem pole so anyone coming in ahead of me will have a potential impact on my future, but I do agree that a relative percentage SLI with adjustments for fleet makeup/percentage wide to narrow would absolutely be fair.
Isn't that what DAL argued in the NWA/DAL SLI?
I'm a way low man on the totem pole so anyone coming in ahead of me will have a potential impact on my future, but I do agree that a relative percentage SLI with adjustments for fleet makeup/percentage wide to narrow would absolutely be fair.
Without a strategy of growth and a union embracing even the interests of future hires the career outlook for everyone on the list takes a hit.
If you retire 1000 out of 12000 you're doing pretty good
If you retire 1000 out of 5000 not so good anymore for QOL and pay.
Either we are a labor union interested in getting everybody on board and making things better for all, or we just do out own thing, protect our guys and let the others fend for themselves...
Unfortunately currently we pick and chose select principles while ignoring others to our own financial and career detriment.
The argument I always got through the ranks of the reps. when asking about Alaska, Hawaiian et al was "you should be happy to have a job, they are furloughing pilots". Now that many of those cited airlines are recalling and hiring. What does that mean for the former argument?
Let's face it: our seniority based system is a giant pyramid scheme. Unless there is a drive to keep it growing the base is stagnates and fails top live up to expectations while the guy at the very tip doesn't notice a thing.
I'm not bitter, but I think there are some philosophical holes the size of the moon in our organization that cannot be resolved by maintaining the established structure, direction and ideals.
Cheers
George
07-07-2011, 09:52 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
Yes, LUV for our domestic rates, and our JV partners for our INTL rates. AF and KLM should do nicely.
07-07-2011, 10:17 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
The more I think about it, I know who to blame.
Really.
Boeing of the 80s, 90s and 2000s is not the Boeing of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
In the 50s Boeing gave us the B47, B52 and then the Dash 80/707. In 1960 they gave us the 727 and in the late 60s here comes the 737 and 747. The 70s they were designing the 757/767.
In the 80s, cruise control. 90s, modify the 737 but make sure it meets whatever SWA demands are met, and upgrade the 767 into the 777 and 764. 2000s, unethical conduct, industrial espionage, subsidy disputes, move to Chicago and try the 787 and so far fail miserably... oh and BIOFUELS!
Had they made an RJ we'd had them.
Had they not tried to pawn off the 735 as a great 100 seater and instead built a real 100 seater of quality, we'd been a lot better off.
Had they had their act together Airbus would've had to have theirs together, and probably does, but we wouldn't be looking for used airplanes like we do.
I blame Boeing. and I blame McDonnell Douglas, for not doing a better job.
It's an easy group to blame, they've ruined a lot of great things.
Really.
Boeing of the 80s, 90s and 2000s is not the Boeing of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
In the 50s Boeing gave us the B47, B52 and then the Dash 80/707. In 1960 they gave us the 727 and in the late 60s here comes the 737 and 747. The 70s they were designing the 757/767.
In the 80s, cruise control. 90s, modify the 737 but make sure it meets whatever SWA demands are met, and upgrade the 767 into the 777 and 764. 2000s, unethical conduct, industrial espionage, subsidy disputes, move to Chicago and try the 787 and so far fail miserably... oh and BIOFUELS!
Had they made an RJ we'd had them.
Had they not tried to pawn off the 735 as a great 100 seater and instead built a real 100 seater of quality, we'd been a lot better off.
Had they had their act together Airbus would've had to have theirs together, and probably does, but we wouldn't be looking for used airplanes like we do.
I blame Boeing. and I blame McDonnell Douglas, for not doing a better job.
It's an easy group to blame, they've ruined a lot of great things.
07-07-2011, 10:30 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 2,039
PLEASE, No MORE!!! Ill never move up this freakin LIST!!
THey should have a 50 year fence on their equipment and base, then they can stovepipe over to Delta. In my opinion, Jetblue was a crapshoot back in 2000. Most of the guys who went there, werent getting calls from the majors.
I agree. No more merging, Lets just buy aircraft and compete.
This one is completely BS. I hope this scenario does not happen!
George, I hope you are right.
TEN
THey should have a 50 year fence on their equipment and base, then they can stovepipe over to Delta. In my opinion, Jetblue was a crapshoot back in 2000. Most of the guys who went there, werent getting calls from the majors.
You could still do relative seniority, it's what many of us think should happen with SWA and AAI. Relative seniority after AAI's start date. In this case, JB didn't start till 1999.
It'd be a mess if you're post 1999 hire at DAL and NWA
Let's go with not merging again.
It'd be a mess if you're post 1999 hire at DAL and NWA
Let's go with not merging again.
TEN
07-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I should have posted the average pilot is credited 1100 for pay purposes. Much like SW pilots at Delta make extra pay in a variety of ways.
A pilot flies 80 hours credit a month basic flying lets say without really pushing to pick up extra. Flies the same in a vacation month as a majority seem to do. Now he is around 1060 for the year. Picks up 10 to 12 hours more for training. Gets a couple trips with 20 hours extra in reroute pay and he is past 1100 credit hours without a single GS. Add in two GS's a quarter paying say 30 pay only hours each and you now have a pilot well beyond 1300 credit hours for the year. Ask Carl what some of his peers on the 747 have flown so far this year. As of their 15 July check coming up some will be over a 1000 already for this tax year. Other fly a lot less. Some pilots fly a lot less but the 2010 average was actually over 1100 total pay hours. If your going to use what SW averages per year then you need to use what Delta pilots average per year.
If you going into negotiations with the company and you try and throw bull**** numbers out there your going to get your a.. handed to you. The same thing applies for dealing with arbitrators.
The company will know to the minute what the average Delta pilot is crediting. They will know to the dime our pilot costs are compared to SW on a per block hour basis. There wont be any dispute on all the numbers. Its all available to both sides.
A pilot flies 80 hours credit a month basic flying lets say without really pushing to pick up extra. Flies the same in a vacation month as a majority seem to do. Now he is around 1060 for the year. Picks up 10 to 12 hours more for training. Gets a couple trips with 20 hours extra in reroute pay and he is past 1100 credit hours without a single GS. Add in two GS's a quarter paying say 30 pay only hours each and you now have a pilot well beyond 1300 credit hours for the year. Ask Carl what some of his peers on the 747 have flown so far this year. As of their 15 July check coming up some will be over a 1000 already for this tax year. Other fly a lot less. Some pilots fly a lot less but the 2010 average was actually over 1100 total pay hours. If your going to use what SW averages per year then you need to use what Delta pilots average per year.
If you going into negotiations with the company and you try and throw bull**** numbers out there your going to get your a.. handed to you. The same thing applies for dealing with arbitrators.
The company will know to the minute what the average Delta pilot is crediting. They will know to the dime our pilot costs are compared to SW on a per block hour basis. There wont be any dispute on all the numbers. Its all available to both sides.
Carl
07-07-2011, 10:33 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
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