Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-05-2011, 10:25 AM
At home on the maddog!
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Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
HA! That reminds me of the day they announced the O.J. Simpson verdict. We were on a turnaround in SAT (TWA B-727). Couldn't get our passengers to board the airplane because they were all huddled around a TV at Fuddruckers just across from our gate!
07-05-2011, 10:28 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Hey, I totally get it. However, ALPA can come out with all the statements they want, but unless I see real changes, that is nothing but hot air. To me, them coming out with a statement like that is no different than if they got that stupid inflatable rat out again. It doesn't do anything.
07-05-2011, 10:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
07-05-2011, 10:36 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
The more I look at that lawyer before and after this verdict the more I believe Casey Anthony is guilty. Schmuck.
As to what we've learned, in Florida you can kill your children without repercussion. As the lead writer for Modern Family just said "the jury has sent a clear message, my children better behave themselves on our summer trip to Disney World."
As to what we've learned, in Florida you can kill your children without repercussion. As the lead writer for Modern Family just said "the jury has sent a clear message, my children better behave themselves on our summer trip to Disney World."
07-05-2011, 10:36 AM
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Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
FYI, 11th yr SWA Captain here. I believe I'm pretty representative of an "average" (or more likely slightly below average) SWA pilot in terms of earnings & productivity. I commute to my base. I have small kids at home. I have a great life outside this job and very much enjoy all the days off I can get. IOW, I basically fly my line and try to improve it where I can through trip trading WITHOUT increasing total work days each month. I pick up very little (~6 extra work days total last year). My 2010 W2 showed $224,860 and I flew 761 hours....virtually all of it at straight pay. I mostly do one 3-day trip each week, or the occasional 4-day every now and then. They're usually not commutable. I shoot for an average of 100 TFP monthly throughout the year to hit our annual household income target. I have 4 weeks of vacation each year.
Best of luck with your negotiations.
Best of luck with your negotiations.
Another thing ALPA likes to threaten is productivity. Delta would have to lay off because they are more productive if Delta matched pay. This Southwest pilot flew 761 hours and is average. That block amount is similar to my block time last year. He also gets 4 weeks of vacation where an 11th year payscale Delta pilot would get 3. And our 3 weeks probably equals 1.5 of the Souhtwest pilot due to trip touching. Delta is getting a bargain!
Waiting for the budweiser "real men of genius" Legacy pilot commercial.
07-05-2011, 10:48 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
What no one has mentioned is smokey is an 11 year southwest pilot. What are the majority of 11 year Delta Pilot's flying? Mid range to junior FO seniority on a narrowbody, 105-120/hr range or horrible wide-body seniority with pay around 120/hr. Can't hold captain on anything! I am talking 11 year payscale which is what this southwest pilot has stated (essentially a 10 year pilot). And we are talking another merger?!? Merger=More stagnation. Tired of seeing students of mine hired at other airlines (Southwest, Airtran, Hawaiian) who have been captain's for many years now (5-7), while my own union wants to downplay the stark pay, QOL differences.
Another thing ALPA likes to threaten is productivity. Delta would have to lay off because they are more productive if Delta matched pay. This Southwest pilot flew 761 hours and is average. That block amount is similar to my block time last year. He also gets 4 weeks of vacation where an 11th year payscale Delta pilot would get 3. And our 3 weeks probably equals 1.5 of the Souhtwest pilot due to trip touching. Delta is getting a bargain!
Waiting for the budweiser "real men of genius" Legacy pilot commercial.
Another thing ALPA likes to threaten is productivity. Delta would have to lay off because they are more productive if Delta matched pay. This Southwest pilot flew 761 hours and is average. That block amount is similar to my block time last year. He also gets 4 weeks of vacation where an 11th year payscale Delta pilot would get 3. And our 3 weeks probably equals 1.5 of the Souhtwest pilot due to trip touching. Delta is getting a bargain!
Waiting for the budweiser "real men of genius" Legacy pilot commercial.
The LEC reps I've spoken with all feel we are deserving of much more than SWA..... It's just a matter of getting the feedback from the pilot group to know how to proceed.
An open letter to DAL managment proclaiming our desire to have the "loan paid back in full with interest" will make you feel good, but what does it produce?
For all we know, they have that press release ready to go, and are waiting for the right time to use it! Why give the "Braveheart Battle of Hastings Speech" now, when the battle isn't for 18 months to 2 years? It will lose it effectiveness if we get fired up too soon.
Don't confuse deliberation with inaction.
07-05-2011, 10:56 AM
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Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
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I keep hearing about "cost per block hour" comparison.
I'm all for that, but let's compare apples to apples when we do that.
I'd like to see domestic narrow-body cost per block hour compared between DAL and SWA, that would be a fair comparison.
Obviously augmented crew international ops would have a different "cost per block hour" that, at the same pay rates, would be higher by a factor of 2 for a four man crew.
The other thing we might do is compare pilot cost per ASM.
The airline uses SMs as a metric for most investor communications ASM RASM CASM.
I'd like to see a breakdown of PCASM for domestic and for intl. ops.
I'd also like to see mean total compensation per year of service.
What I don't want is selective data to illustrate a point.
I'd like to see as much quantitative data as possible.
Let's include SW and Airtran JetBlue an why not AFKLM as well...
Cheers
George
I'm all for that, but let's compare apples to apples when we do that.
I'd like to see domestic narrow-body cost per block hour compared between DAL and SWA, that would be a fair comparison.
Obviously augmented crew international ops would have a different "cost per block hour" that, at the same pay rates, would be higher by a factor of 2 for a four man crew.
The other thing we might do is compare pilot cost per ASM.
The airline uses SMs as a metric for most investor communications ASM RASM CASM.
I'd like to see a breakdown of PCASM for domestic and for intl. ops.
I'd also like to see mean total compensation per year of service.
What I don't want is selective data to illustrate a point.
I'd like to see as much quantitative data as possible.
Let's include SW and Airtran JetBlue an why not AFKLM as well...
Cheers
George
07-05-2011, 11:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
I keep hearing about "cost per block hour" comparison.
I'm all for that, but let's compare apples to apples when we do that.
I'd like to see domestic narrow-body cost per block hour compared between DAL and SWA, that would be a fair comparison.
Obviously augmented crew international ops would have a different "cost per block hour" that, at the same pay rates, would be higher by a factor of 2 for a four man crew.
The other thing we might do is compare pilot cost per ASM.
The airline uses SMs as a metric for most investor communications ASM RASM CASM.
I'd like to see a breakdown of PCASM for domestic and for intl. ops.
I'd also like to see mean total compensation per year of service.
What I don't want is selective data to illustrate a point.
I'd like to see as much quantitative data as possible.
Let's include SW and Airtran JetBlue an why not AFKLM as well...
Cheers
George
I'm all for that, but let's compare apples to apples when we do that.
I'd like to see domestic narrow-body cost per block hour compared between DAL and SWA, that would be a fair comparison.
Obviously augmented crew international ops would have a different "cost per block hour" that, at the same pay rates, would be higher by a factor of 2 for a four man crew.
The other thing we might do is compare pilot cost per ASM.
The airline uses SMs as a metric for most investor communications ASM RASM CASM.
I'd like to see a breakdown of PCASM for domestic and for intl. ops.
I'd also like to see mean total compensation per year of service.
What I don't want is selective data to illustrate a point.
I'd like to see as much quantitative data as possible.
Let's include SW and Airtran JetBlue an why not AFKLM as well...
Cheers
George
07-05-2011, 11:14 AM
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Its coming to you very soon. You will have a comparison document (including SWA) that will offer lots of insights into peer and competitor contract terms and compensation levels(I have heard that AF/KLM is included but I haven't been able to confirm it, I want to see AF/KLM numbers for sure since we have the JV/metal neutral agreement with them.)
07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
The analysis of CY96 is interesting, but it's relevance escapes me. O'Malley is going to be different than Moak, who was different than Malone. Yet Giambusso's legacy still casts a great shadow through our Administration's continuity.*
Our MEC is in a tough situation. Pilot expectations are high and fueled by web board politics which mostly pushes in one direction without a whole lot of logical analysis.
Having already allowed ~ 50% outsourcing, we are fail to perform a monopoly of "Delta" flying. The RLA harshly restricts what we can do with the diminished leverage we actually wield.
People get spitting mad when our MEC Reps talk pragmatic numbers which barely exceed (or match) real inflation. But, unless United, US Air and American bring their contracts up to slightly better than Delta standard we are going to have very little external support for our demands and not much internal leverage either.
Scope recapture can be mostly cost neutral and we should close those loopholes while we can in order to capture the high ground for future battles. Every contract is Gettysburg. Better to strategically position troops in defensible positions than to throw yourself against the enemy based on emotional, tactical, charges in the open.
Moak deserves great credit for leveraging opportunity when available. Instead of frontal attacks he had carefully crafted guerrilla actions which netted the pilots some very tangible benefits.
Moak believed outsourcing was beneficial for Delta pilots and I've not seen any sign the MEC administration has had any change of heart. Unfortunately they ARE divorced from the mainline pilots. In many ways they have to be. We enjoy the luxury of web board battles with no real loss of resources other than our time. Our Reps have to maintain very real relationships in order to accomplish the work they do.
* It is my opinion (and just my opinion) that we need to refresh our Administration. I am surprised this has not already happened. Contract 2000 WAS a high water mark, but it was also enforcement disaster. It was being modified by concession within six months of ratification. It's most important provisions were modified at least 7 times with repeat concessions in scope and compensation. Frankly, these concessions are objective signs of failure.
I for one want a sustainable contract. My ego does not require achievement of "bragging rights." I'm plenty confident the quality of the work Delta pilots do is self evident. I want ALPA to negotiate a contract which encourages Delta to grow organically, securing the jobs and promotional opportunities that will result in greater pay across our seniority list as Captains hold better flying on preferred equipment, First Officers upgrade and new pilots get hired.
What would net you the greatest return? A 25% raise with stagnation (or demotion as we outsource) or a 15% raise with a seat or equipment upgrade and holding a better schedule? (pick your own percentages, that's not the point here ... stagnation and demotion does hurt, as I'm not yet back to second year pay as an involuntary result of both)
The unfortunate truth is the cost of some of our recent gains was paid for through stagnation of the majority of our seniority list. I want the high ground from where we can crush the infidels when they run across the open field of competition.
Our MEC is in a tough situation. Pilot expectations are high and fueled by web board politics which mostly pushes in one direction without a whole lot of logical analysis.
Having already allowed ~ 50% outsourcing, we are fail to perform a monopoly of "Delta" flying. The RLA harshly restricts what we can do with the diminished leverage we actually wield.
People get spitting mad when our MEC Reps talk pragmatic numbers which barely exceed (or match) real inflation. But, unless United, US Air and American bring their contracts up to slightly better than Delta standard we are going to have very little external support for our demands and not much internal leverage either.
Scope recapture can be mostly cost neutral and we should close those loopholes while we can in order to capture the high ground for future battles. Every contract is Gettysburg. Better to strategically position troops in defensible positions than to throw yourself against the enemy based on emotional, tactical, charges in the open.
Moak deserves great credit for leveraging opportunity when available. Instead of frontal attacks he had carefully crafted guerrilla actions which netted the pilots some very tangible benefits.
Moak believed outsourcing was beneficial for Delta pilots and I've not seen any sign the MEC administration has had any change of heart. Unfortunately they ARE divorced from the mainline pilots. In many ways they have to be. We enjoy the luxury of web board battles with no real loss of resources other than our time. Our Reps have to maintain very real relationships in order to accomplish the work they do.
* It is my opinion (and just my opinion) that we need to refresh our Administration. I am surprised this has not already happened. Contract 2000 WAS a high water mark, but it was also enforcement disaster. It was being modified by concession within six months of ratification. It's most important provisions were modified at least 7 times with repeat concessions in scope and compensation. Frankly, these concessions are objective signs of failure.
I for one want a sustainable contract. My ego does not require achievement of "bragging rights." I'm plenty confident the quality of the work Delta pilots do is self evident. I want ALPA to negotiate a contract which encourages Delta to grow organically, securing the jobs and promotional opportunities that will result in greater pay across our seniority list as Captains hold better flying on preferred equipment, First Officers upgrade and new pilots get hired.
What would net you the greatest return? A 25% raise with stagnation (or demotion as we outsource) or a 15% raise with a seat or equipment upgrade and holding a better schedule? (pick your own percentages, that's not the point here ... stagnation and demotion does hurt, as I'm not yet back to second year pay as an involuntary result of both)
The unfortunate truth is the cost of some of our recent gains was paid for through stagnation of the majority of our seniority list. I want the high ground from where we can crush the infidels when they run across the open field of competition.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-05-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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