Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

Much like the spin from the alpaoids that's been posted about stuff lately, the painting is embellished, misrepresents the facts, and just overall not quite accurate.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Much has been made about the Southwest welcome packet and the numbers they post about how well they are doing. I believe SWAPA is doing a good job representing their pilot and I am not trying to bash them, but I think they might have played a little fast and loose with their numbers in their opening presentation. Let’s not forget that they still have their seniority integration to go and SWAPA’s main argument so far to AirTran pilots is “you should be happy to be stapled to the bottom of our list.” I am pretty sure that this welcome packet was meant to reinforce that message.


For instance much has been made about a SWA Captain making $230,000 per year and working 12 days a month. Let’s examine those numbers. Their current pay (from the packet) is maxed out at $186.06 per TRIP which means their HOURLY pay rate is about $212. Divide $212 into $230,000 and you get 1085 hours or 90.5 hours per month. If they only worked 12 days that means they got paid 7.5 hours per day, yet they say their average duty day is 9 hours. In fact, that assumes that all of their Captains are at the maximum pay, if you take into account pilots that are not yet at their maximum then the numbers get worse. I am sorry but that is just not possible. My guess is that they are playing a few games here.


For instance, they say that the majority of regular lines have 17 days off per month. They say their reserves have 15/16 days off per month. Yet their entire pilot group averages 18 days off per month. That doesn’t add up. What they are doing is taking into account reserve days not worked, sick days, vacation days, and other days where you were paid but didn’t actually fly; not dishonest, but if you are going to compare then you have to compare apples to apples.

For instance Delta pilots average about 28-29 days of vacation per year that equates to about 16 days of pay. They also average around 15 days of sick time per year. If you then add in reserve days not worked, time spent awaiting OE, and many other items, you can quickly get to Delta pilots averaging 12 days or less “worked” per month. I don’t want to get into definitional games here, but remember, the SWAPA message is to convince the AirTran pilots to accept a highly unbalanced seniority integration so they are the ones playing a few games.


Let’s look at the pay rate again. Their 737 rate is $212 and ours is $174. On the surface there appears to be a 22% difference. Our pay rate also includes 13% in retirement contributions so our effective rate is $197 when you include all cash compensation. However, that tells an unbalanced story also.

The SWAPA contract has a company 401K match that their pilots can use to increase their compensation. In order to get a 13% retirement contribution, a SWA pilot would have to use 6.5% of their pay as their contribution and the company would match 6.5%. That means that to get equal retirement contributions, the effective pay rate for Delta is $197 and for SWA is $226 or a difference of 15%. That gap will narrow next year when we receive a 5% increase in total compensation (4+1). SWA is slated to get a 1-3% pay rate increase in September, depending upon their company’s operating margin (you see, those statistics matter!).


My point is that people take this pamphlet, which is meant to sway the AirTran pilots’ view of this merger, and try to make it like it’s a true contract comparison. It is not. If ALPA tried to play these types of semantic games with you, you would cry foul.

Originally Posted by 73sw

SWA Captain

w-2 2010 $317,000 Total days at work 142 All training and DH included
Not check airman, just working the system.

Yes average captain makes 230,000 Reserve pays 215,000 for a captain picking up nada(nothing)

One other correction, when SWAPA started it started with no funds from the company, all the pilots were volunteers and not paid a dime for their time. The president donated the his house for meetings and stationary.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

Much like the spin from the alpaoids that's been posted about stuff lately, the painting is embellished, misrepresents the facts, and just overall not quite accurate.

Originally Posted by slowplay

That right there is another "varsity" comment, 80...

Originally Posted by FlyingViking

Funny how this happens daily now. 50% is just around the corner and then, and only then, can we start to publish the differences between the two groups. My guestimate is that we will have all the cards needed before the new PWA is on the table. Good for all of us, don't forget to tell your Captain / FO on your next trip...

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

What you and particularly sailingfun fail to understand is the ridiculous amount of soft pay that they make. My friends that work there come out of short trips with a seemingly impossible amount of credit to someone that works under our contract.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

If that Viking picture is ALPA President LM, then this is the oil painting Carl will have made when he's voted DPA President:

Originally Posted by BigGuns

Propaganda or not the union shouldn't be trying to down play it, they should be using it as a rally cry!

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Much has been made about the Southwest welcome packet and the numbers they post about how well they are doing. I believe SWAPA is doing a good job representing their pilot and I am not trying to bash them, but I think they might have played a little fast and loose with their numbers in their opening presentation. Let’s not forget that they still have their seniority integration to go and SWAPA’s main argument so far to AirTran pilots is “you should be happy to be stapled to the bottom of our list.” I am pretty sure that this welcome packet was meant to reinforce that message.


For instance much has been made about a SWA Captain making $230,000 per year and working 12 days a month. Let’s examine those numbers. Their current pay (from the packet) is maxed out at $186.06 per TRIP which means their HOURLY pay rate is about $212. Divide $212 into $230,000 and you get 1085 hours or 90.5 hours per month. If they only worked 12 days that means they got paid 7.5 hours per day, yet they say their average duty day is 9 hours. In fact, that assumes that all of their Captains are at the maximum pay, if you take into account pilots that are not yet at their maximum then the numbers get worse. I am sorry but that is just not possible. My guess is that they are playing a few games here.


For instance, they say that the majority of regular lines have 17 days off per month. They say their reserves have 15/16 days off per month. Yet their entire pilot group averages 18 days off per month. That doesn’t add up. What they are doing is taking into account reserve days not worked, sick days, vacation days, and other days where you were paid but didn’t actually fly; not dishonest, but if you are going to compare then you have to compare apples to apples.

For instance Delta pilots average about 28-29 days of vacation per year that equates to about 16 days of pay. They also average around 15 days of sick time per year. If you then add in reserve days not worked, time spent awaiting OE, and many other items, you can quickly get to Delta pilots averaging 12 days or less “worked” per month. I don’t want to get into definitional games here, but remember, the SWAPA message is to convince the AirTran pilots to accept a highly unbalanced seniority integration so they are the ones playing a few games.


Let’s look at the pay rate again. Their 737 rate is $212 and ours is $174. On the surface there appears to be a 22% difference. Our pay rate also includes 13% in retirement contributions so our effective rate is $197 when you include all cash compensation. However, that tells an unbalanced story also.

The SWAPA contract has a company 401K match that their pilots can use to increase their compensation. In order to get a 13% retirement contribution, a SWA pilot would have to use 6.5% of their pay as their contribution and the company would match 6.5%. That means that to get equal retirement contributions, the effective pay rate for Delta is $197 and for SWA is $226 or a difference of 15%. That gap will narrow next year when we receive a 5% increase in total compensation (4+1). SWA is slated to get a 1-3% pay rate increase in September, depending upon their company’s operating margin (you see, those statistics matter!).


My point is that people take this pamphlet, which is meant to sway the AirTran pilots’ view of this merger, and try to make it like it’s a true contract comparison. It is not. If ALPA tried to play these types of semantic games with you, you would cry foul.