Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-30-2011, 12:43 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
You know what would be a peculiar situation and this gets back to 88's point of the true average SWA salary, but what if DAL got the 717s from SWA/AAI post AAI pilots getting pay parity and before we get a contract.
DAL pilots would be flying an AirTran airplane for $40-$50K less per year and per seat than the AirTran pilots were.
Now that would ruffle some feathers because lost in the %s talk is something tangible and that is SWA pays their reserve domestic 737 pilots more than DAL 777/747 reserve pilots who could on a 2 hour notice fly their jet to the other side of the world. And that we could end up flying their airplanes for $40-$50K less.
Not to sound like a broken record but this SWA/AAI merger is very useful to us and to a good extent, Delta. I think we'll all benefit in time. Not saying Carl or T have to give em' a hug, just ask for equal pay for equal work.... plus, unless of course they want to get rid of all outsourced flying... then maybe 1:1.
DAL pilots would be flying an AirTran airplane for $40-$50K less per year and per seat than the AirTran pilots were.
Now that would ruffle some feathers because lost in the %s talk is something tangible and that is SWA pays their reserve domestic 737 pilots more than DAL 777/747 reserve pilots who could on a 2 hour notice fly their jet to the other side of the world. And that we could end up flying their airplanes for $40-$50K less.
Not to sound like a broken record but this SWA/AAI merger is very useful to us and to a good extent, Delta. I think we'll all benefit in time. Not saying Carl or T have to give em' a hug, just ask for equal pay for equal work.... plus, unless of course they want to get rid of all outsourced flying... then maybe 1:1.
06-30-2011, 12:44 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
The opener from the company I suspect will stun most pilots. I would expect something on the order of a 3 percent pay raise with 3 percent each year offset by work rule concessions to cover the cost of the raise. Visible pilot reaction to managements opener will help determine the final outcome of the contract.
06-30-2011, 12:47 PM
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
Their hiring minimums are higher than Delta's as well.
06-30-2011, 12:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
I am not sure where some of the wild numbers being put out here come from. To match SWA in pay if you compare their 737 rate to ours at the amendable date of our contract will require about a 15 percent raise in direct pay rates. If you add the value of the DC contribution to the mix then the raise would only have to be around 9 percent. If we go to the company demanding SW compensation the company might just say no problem. Here is their total block hour cost per pilot. We will be glad to pay you that!!!
Hint, Their total block hour cost verses ours is not that far apart. We probably don't want to go there.
Hint, Their total block hour cost verses ours is not that far apart. We probably don't want to go there.
06-30-2011, 01:02 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
But we shouldn't try to match 737 rates to our 737 rates because of mission profiles are different especially when you consider the 717. The only aircraft of same size and mission is the DC9 and their 717.
Not to mention if we include DC contribution then theirs has to be included plus factor in scope.
Because if we give up scope we get a raise, so SWA+scope reparations.
Not to mention if we include DC contribution then theirs has to be included plus factor in scope.
Because if we give up scope we get a raise, so SWA+scope reparations.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-30-2011 at 01:15 PM.
06-30-2011, 01:06 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Agreed. Most of the guys who left the USAF when I was leaving went to SWA. All had very impressive military flying credentials AND they got their 73 type. In fact, the former Presidential Pilot for Air Force One went to SWA.
06-30-2011, 01:19 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I am not sure where some of the wild numbers being put out here come from. To match SWA in pay if you compare their 737 rate to ours at the amendable date of our contract will require about a 15 percent raise in direct pay rates. If you add the value of the DC contribution to the mix then the raise would only have to be around 9 percent. If we go to the company demanding SW compensation the company might just say no problem. Here is their total block hour cost per pilot. We will be glad to pay you that!!!
Hint, Their total block hour cost verses ours is not that far apart. We probably don't want to go there.
Hint, Their total block hour cost verses ours is not that far apart. We probably don't want to go there.
The bottom line is how your W-2 ends up. THAT is what determines your standard of living on a day to day basis. The average SWA pilot can afford a much nicer home than the average Delta pilot. He can afford to send his kids to better schools. He has a decent retirement plan... especially considering that he didn't have to start from scratch halfway through his career like a lot of us did. Those are the things that matter. The rest is just misdirection BS. Why would you do that?
06-30-2011, 01:44 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
I am not sure where some of the wild numbers being put out here come from. To match SWA in pay if you compare their 737 rate to ours at the amendable date of our contract will require about a 15 percent raise in direct pay rates. If you add the value of the DC contribution to the mix then the raise would only have to be around 9 percent. If we go to the company demanding SW compensation the company might just say no problem. Here is their total block hour cost per pilot. We will be glad to pay you that!!!
Hint, Their total block hour cost verses ours is not that far apart. We probably don't want to go there.
Hint, Their total block hour cost verses ours is not that far apart. We probably don't want to go there.
Don't manage our expectations. We all know what SWA has, they gave the Airtran pilots a welcome letter stating it. SWA +1 for the 737s. And then go up from there. We made $950 million last year on bag fees. Nuff said, and the DPA card is going out today. Looks like DALPA needs to be scared into listening to their constituents. That Dalpa opener had better be good.
06-30-2011, 01:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
I understand.
I'm just trying to figure out how to frame an argument and the fact SWA bought out AAI and now AAI will be at SWA rates is useful.
Not to mention SWA, damnit somewhere on youtube and I can't find it to post it, made a commercial ridiculing RJ's.
Great pay and great scope and an airline that see's ticket pricing like a legacy is what is replacing AirTran here in Mecca. That's a great thing.
Just trying to leverage it so that the 88 = SWA pay and the tide lifts all boats. In one tiny way it's a framing argument for our own group.
Just ask a pilot, 30, 40, 70% pay raise? They know better. Like sailing mentioned, the opener will be 3%. They know 30-70% is unaffordable, C2K rates plus inflation won't happen, we'd lose the PR battle and go on strike and be broken... but say SWA+, all for it.
Equal pay for equal work. Humorous sexual context aside, there is something to be said for equal pay for equal work. You don't have to like it, just say it.
I'm just trying to figure out how to frame an argument and the fact SWA bought out AAI and now AAI will be at SWA rates is useful.
Not to mention SWA, damnit somewhere on youtube and I can't find it to post it, made a commercial ridiculing RJ's.
Great pay and great scope and an airline that see's ticket pricing like a legacy is what is replacing AirTran here in Mecca. That's a great thing.
Just trying to leverage it so that the 88 = SWA pay and the tide lifts all boats. In one tiny way it's a framing argument for our own group.
Just ask a pilot, 30, 40, 70% pay raise? They know better. Like sailing mentioned, the opener will be 3%. They know 30-70% is unaffordable, C2K rates plus inflation won't happen, we'd lose the PR battle and go on strike and be broken... but say SWA+, all for it.
Equal pay for equal work. Humorous sexual context aside, there is something to be said for equal pay for equal work. You don't have to like it, just say it.
FV,
I usually agree with you, but I don't agree with your point on this one at all. Because of their pay being so much higher, SWA is getting the top tier pilot candidates these days. They've already passed "Riddle and military training" AND a 73 type.
I agree we should be paid more than they are, but you're looking at a minimum of +50% just to match them. LM laughed at a sim instructor for suggesting we would get even +30%. There are others here who would argue the same thing. (Although those folks have become curiously quiet on the subject since SWA released their ValuTran welcome packet and the cat got out of the bag about how much more they're making than we are.)
I usually agree with you, but I don't agree with your point on this one at all. Because of their pay being so much higher, SWA is getting the top tier pilot candidates these days. They've already passed "Riddle and military training" AND a 73 type.
I agree we should be paid more than they are, but you're looking at a minimum of +50% just to match them. LM laughed at a sim instructor for suggesting we would get even +30%. There are others here who would argue the same thing. (Although those folks have become curiously quiet on the subject since SWA released their ValuTran welcome packet and the cat got out of the bag about how much more they're making than we are.)
......Don't manage our expectations. We all know what SWA has, they gave the Airtran pilots a welcome letter stating it. SWA +1 for the 737s. .......We made $950 million last year on bag fees. Nuff said, and the DPA card is going out today. Looks like DALPA needs to be scared into listening to their constituents. That Dalpa opener had better be good.
06-30-2011, 01:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Wrong. Not even close.
I would just rather have the extra 36 days a year and 108 extra pay hours a year than the current illusion of "only 6 short calls" that can and are placed in such a way as to burn commuters in most categories very easily.
The current system is almost like unlimited short calls because on day 1 you will get a short call (if you don't get a trip) most of the time (except the very few perpetually fat staffed categories). Even then, only a few of the non commuters in those few perpetually fat staffed categories give a dang if they get long call in the middle of a reserve stint when day one was short call anyway (and often quite early at that).
When scheduling can give you an early SC on day one just to get you there, often the day before, and then work on it as they see fit from then on, its no better than unlimited short calls and as an added bonus, we get 36 fewer days a year off and 108 hours less pay.
I would just rather have the extra 36 days a year and 108 extra pay hours a year than the current illusion of "only 6 short calls" that can and are placed in such a way as to burn commuters in most categories very easily.
The current system is almost like unlimited short calls because on day 1 you will get a short call (if you don't get a trip) most of the time (except the very few perpetually fat staffed categories). Even then, only a few of the non commuters in those few perpetually fat staffed categories give a dang if they get long call in the middle of a reserve stint when day one was short call anyway (and often quite early at that).
When scheduling can give you an early SC on day one just to get you there, often the day before, and then work on it as they see fit from then on, its no better than unlimited short calls and as an added bonus, we get 36 fewer days a year off and 108 hours less pay.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
