Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-29-2011, 04:47 PM
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Our NO votes are the single most important thing for us to all remember when it gets to crunch time about 18 months from now. It will be important, but extremely difficult for those who've never been through a Section 6 process before. At crunch time, our union reps will come out with scare tactics like you and your wives have never seen before. They will talk of things like "A NO vote will ruin everything", and "A NO vote will mean the end of the MEC and negotiating committee and we'll have to start over from ground zero after the new elections", and "A NO vote will show such division in our pilot group that management's next offer will be FAR WORSE than this one", etc., etc...
This will of course all be complete BS, but it WILL happen. When it does, be ready...and vote NO.
Carl
This will of course all be complete BS, but it WILL happen. When it does, be ready...and vote NO.
Carl
Carl is correct. The simple truth is that if we are not willing to risk anything - we will probably not gain much. A few month ago I flew with a Captain who said C2000 rates were his minimum. I asked him if he would be willing to strike over it. He said no. I said Hmmmmm????
When guys ask me what number I would like to see I say I don't have a number. I will not make a decision until I see the "whole package." A 50% pay-raise does me little good if we cave on Scope. Conversely a smaller raise with tight scope, better vacation and training minimums, higher 401K, 75 hour reserve minimum etc could be much more attractive.
The devil is in the details. We fell for the "Big $$$" on C2000 and gave up a ton of Scope. The $$$$ soon disappeared but our Scope failure (my opinion) unfortunately, is still around. Pay-rates are very important, probably the most important single issue, but the contract must be look at in total.
Scoop
06-29-2011, 04:58 PM
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Because, as usual, he's making the same case management will try to make and for some unfathomable reason(s) he seems to be trying to keep our expectations low.
And, BTW, don't forget that you can't really compare rates with SWA because of the way they are paid (TFP). You have to look at their "hourly" rate and then realize they are getting paid a whole lot more of those than we are. Easier to just look at the average MD-88/90 Captain at Delta making about $150k, and the average SWA Captain (doing essentially the same type of flying) is making over $230k. For those of you in Rio Linda/Herndon... that's an $80,000 difference!
And, BTW, don't forget that you can't really compare rates with SWA because of the way they are paid (TFP). You have to look at their "hourly" rate and then realize they are getting paid a whole lot more of those than we are. Easier to just look at the average MD-88/90 Captain at Delta making about $150k, and the average SWA Captain (doing essentially the same type of flying) is making over $230k. For those of you in Rio Linda/Herndon... that's an $80,000 difference!
06-29-2011, 05:07 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You would.
Because SWAPA wants it and Gary Kelly is a smart man. And by the way, it won't be 2013, it'll be sooner.
Our pay RATE parity with you guys was a pay cut for NWA pilots.
We'll see.
NWA pilots weren't lucky. I don't feel lucky right now. I'll bet many NWA pilots don't feel lucky right now.
Carl
NWA pilots weren't lucky. I don't feel lucky right now. I'll bet many NWA pilots don't feel lucky right now.
Carl
06-29-2011, 05:21 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
blah, blah, blah.....
blah, blah, blah....
Carl, your rhetoric bores me.
Carl, your rhetoric bores me.
06-29-2011, 05:53 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl is correct. The simple truth is that if we are not willing to risk anything - we will probably not gain much. A few month ago I flew with a Captain who said C2000 rates were his minimum. I asked him if he would be willing to strike over it. He said no. I said Hmmmmm????
When guys ask me what number I would like to see I say I don't have a number. I will not make a decision until I see the "whole package." A 50% pay-raise does me little good if we cave on Scope. Conversely a smaller raise with tight scope, better vacation and training minimums, higher 401K, 75 hour reserve minimum etc could be much more attractive.
The devil is in the details. We fell for the "Big $$$" on C2000 and gave up a ton of Scope. The $$$$ soon disappeared but our Scope failure (my opinion) unfortunately, is still around. Pay-rates are very important, probably the most important single issue, but the contract must be look at in total.
Scoop
When guys ask me what number I would like to see I say I don't have a number. I will not make a decision until I see the "whole package." A 50% pay-raise does me little good if we cave on Scope. Conversely a smaller raise with tight scope, better vacation and training minimums, higher 401K, 75 hour reserve minimum etc could be much more attractive.
The devil is in the details. We fell for the "Big $$$" on C2000 and gave up a ton of Scope. The $$$$ soon disappeared but our Scope failure (my opinion) unfortunately, is still around. Pay-rates are very important, probably the most important single issue, but the contract must be look at in total.
Scoop
06-29-2011, 06:10 PM
Back on TDY
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
06-29-2011, 06:12 PM
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Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Exactly. We have to bust the myth that Scope is somehow a seperate or niche issue. Scope is Pay. Scope is Retirement. Scope is Vacation. Scope is simply the jobs that everything else in the contract applies to.
06-29-2011, 06:21 PM
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Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
I have to agree 100%.
I told our reps what my number is and it is above SWA +1%. For us to get a yes vote they will need to fix everything else and beast the old/current SWA rates by a good margin.
Just remember when filling out the survey, Scope and Pay in that order.
I told our reps what my number is and it is above SWA +1%. For us to get a yes vote they will need to fix everything else and beast the old/current SWA rates by a good margin.
Just remember when filling out the survey, Scope and Pay in that order.
Add in the fact that some of our reps are making twice of what some of our Captains are making and then come to the conclusion that this circus does not need a complete restructure.
New representation just passed half the cards they need, with the latest greatest from our dear reps, it can only increase....
06-29-2011, 07:05 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Is it just me or is it just wrong that we as pilots in the second biggest airline in the world is comparing our payrates to a domestic LOW COST carrier ?
Add in the fact that some of our reps are making twice of what some of our Captains are making and then come to the conclusion that this circus does not need a complete restructure.
New representation just passed half the cards they need, with the latest greatest from our dear reps, it can only increase....
Add in the fact that some of our reps are making twice of what some of our Captains are making and then come to the conclusion that this circus does not need a complete restructure.
New representation just passed half the cards they need, with the latest greatest from our dear reps, it can only increase....
Carl
06-29-2011, 07:09 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
Pay rates are great, but I think we should mostly be focusing on other ways to increase compensation, like bringing back significant night pay, big nums for international pay, and a huge (x4) increase in per diem. And pay from doors closed to open. Larger minimum calendar day, not duty period. These are all ways to make significantly more cash, some tax advantaged, with lower increases to hourly rates. That way the company gets to tell the financial community that we only gave x when the reality is much more.
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