Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-26-2011, 10:37 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
How many of the Airbi and Boeings coming down the production line are purchased by lessors with no definitive customers? Just read GECAS ordered 30 ATRs, I don't know but I wonder if they're really for anyone anyways? Delivery slots do have value of you resale at a premium.
fwiw, when it comes to new aircraft orders I worked on an order when I was the CP for a corporate operation. First, the Embraer Legacy the boss owned was acquired while already on the production line when someone backed out. Evidently happens all of the time and sometimes you're stuck with options you didn't want sometimes you're not. Now the boss ordered one of the new Phenom 100s to augment his jet. At the time a lot of people and companies were buying positions for the 100s in the hopes of holding them up until they had to make progress payments and then selling them for a premium (read double) to a real buyer who was too impatient to wait through a rather sizable backlog.
That ticked Embraer off as they incorrectly saw that they could've made more money up front by increasing the prices of their positions. The boss had ordered one of the new EMB-500s to replace his Legacy but when those prices went up he dropped the 500. If you go online you'll see about 27+ Phenom 100s for sale. Many are future positions as this game of securing one and then selling it for a premium backfired simultaneously with the house flipping craze.
Thats my two cents.
fwiw, when it comes to new aircraft orders I worked on an order when I was the CP for a corporate operation. First, the Embraer Legacy the boss owned was acquired while already on the production line when someone backed out. Evidently happens all of the time and sometimes you're stuck with options you didn't want sometimes you're not. Now the boss ordered one of the new Phenom 100s to augment his jet. At the time a lot of people and companies were buying positions for the 100s in the hopes of holding them up until they had to make progress payments and then selling them for a premium (read double) to a real buyer who was too impatient to wait through a rather sizable backlog.
That ticked Embraer off as they incorrectly saw that they could've made more money up front by increasing the prices of their positions. The boss had ordered one of the new EMB-500s to replace his Legacy but when those prices went up he dropped the 500. If you go online you'll see about 27+ Phenom 100s for sale. Many are future positions as this game of securing one and then selling it for a premium backfired simultaneously with the house flipping craze.
Thats my two cents.
06-26-2011, 10:46 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
And to add, how many 737-800 positions did Delta resale?
06-26-2011, 10:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,612
I don't believe are Boeing contract allowed us to resell a unconfirmed position. What we did do however is resell a bunch (30 Plus) 737-800's after purchasing them. The planes went from the production line to the new airline without Delta ever flying them however we technically took delivery and then sold the aircraft.
06-26-2011, 10:59 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Alfa is correct.
When we were negotiating to fly the EMB up north, the company said "Nope, no way, they're sold out for 4 years".
When Compass was created, 36 "sold out" airplanes magically appeared virtually overnight.
When they were studying the replacement frieghter "nope, nothing out there that is remotely cost effective and lease rates are too high". Then, magically, a whole bunch of cargo outfits found very cost effective frieghters...virtually overnight.
When they were studying the DC-9 replacement "nope, nothing out there is what we are looking for...too large, too small, not enough cargo, too much cargo, not enough wing, too much wing, won't fit the jetway, too expensive...blah blah blah"
When we let them have more 76 seaters, the EMBs and CRJ900s magically filled the gates where our DC-9s, 737s and 319s parked...virtually overnight.
They want the airplanes....what they don't want is us.
Nu
When we were negotiating to fly the EMB up north, the company said "Nope, no way, they're sold out for 4 years".
When Compass was created, 36 "sold out" airplanes magically appeared virtually overnight.
When they were studying the replacement frieghter "nope, nothing out there that is remotely cost effective and lease rates are too high". Then, magically, a whole bunch of cargo outfits found very cost effective frieghters...virtually overnight.
When they were studying the DC-9 replacement "nope, nothing out there is what we are looking for...too large, too small, not enough cargo, too much cargo, not enough wing, too much wing, won't fit the jetway, too expensive...blah blah blah"
When we let them have more 76 seaters, the EMBs and CRJ900s magically filled the gates where our DC-9s, 737s and 319s parked...virtually overnight.
They want the airplanes....what they don't want is us.
Nu
Nu makes a lot of great points here. They can get jets when they want them if they want them.
I do however remember Boeing lamenting the over production ramifications they suffered from earlier to where they gave a optimum lead time on orders to be I want to say 2-3 years? Or maybe I'm confusing manufacturers on the time frame but I swear it was Boeing that suffered from overproduction problems.
Boeing could always create a new venture with a manufacturer free of the IBT, NLRB and US Govt, free of a lot of issues plus provide them with an immediate 100 seater jet... Embraer? My bet is Boeings next final assembly line will not be in the U.S. After all there is a great model their customers developed called outsourcing what you do best and making money on the ancillary stuff.
As for Delta, we don't need to order new when we can acquire used jets about to be parked:
Cheap and easy.
06-26-2011, 11:01 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I don't believe are Boeing contract allowed us to resell a unconfirmed position. What we did do however is resell a bunch (30 Plus) 737-800's after purchasing them. The planes went from the production line to the new airline without Delta ever flying them however we technically took delivery and then sold the aircraft.
06-26-2011, 11:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,906
Heyas FtB,
Replacement 100 seaters do NOT have to be expensive.
Take a DC-9...maybe with a new wing with better high altitude performance / more fuel. The airfame structure itself is PROVEN by 50 years experience.
Normal cabin and cargo capacity.
Simplify the systems a bit. The 717 would be a good model for this.
Where you can, have STONE SIMPLE systems with good dispatch redundancy. Anyone who's ever turned a wrench on a DC-9 or 737 should be able to fix it.
What you don't need is a MD-11 cockpit. Two IRUs, two comms, a simple FMS with BASIC RNAV capability (no need for RNP in the states). Think of something along the lines of a F-100.
No fly by wire. No hydraulic powered flight controls. No complicated engines. Roll it down hill, let the clutch out, and off you go. You should be able to practically pull start the engines.
Nu
Replacement 100 seaters do NOT have to be expensive.
Take a DC-9...maybe with a new wing with better high altitude performance / more fuel. The airfame structure itself is PROVEN by 50 years experience.
Normal cabin and cargo capacity.
Simplify the systems a bit. The 717 would be a good model for this.
Where you can, have STONE SIMPLE systems with good dispatch redundancy. Anyone who's ever turned a wrench on a DC-9 or 737 should be able to fix it.
What you don't need is a MD-11 cockpit. Two IRUs, two comms, a simple FMS with BASIC RNAV capability (no need for RNP in the states). Think of something along the lines of a F-100.
No fly by wire. No hydraulic powered flight controls. No complicated engines. Roll it down hill, let the clutch out, and off you go. You should be able to practically pull start the engines.
Nu
06-26-2011, 12:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
I don't believe are Boeing contract allowed us to resell a unconfirmed position. What we did do however is resell a bunch (30 Plus) 737-800's after purchasing them. The planes went from the production line to the new airline without Delta ever flying them however we technically took delivery and then sold the aircraft.
06-26-2011, 12:16 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
06-26-2011, 12:21 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
06-26-2011, 12:31 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
