Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-22-2011, 06:14 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Me thinks the FAA management might have screwed up in the way they phrased their presentation.
Compliance with any clearance is up to crew discretion. But we'd better either be under emergency authority or have a very good reason why continuing was the safest course of action.
The criteria for cancelling a takeoff clearance is an immediate safety threat. A "loss of separation" can mean a runway incursion, especially at the circus that is Kennedy during the late afternoon push. Controllers are NOT allowed to cancel a clearance for flow, or traffic management.
In the real world, I've never had a controller cancel a takeoff clearance. There has been a couple of times they probably should have cancelled a landing clearance and a couple of times they cancelled a landing clearance with traffic directly in the missed approach path.
Compliance with any clearance is up to crew discretion. But we'd better either be under emergency authority or have a very good reason why continuing was the safest course of action.
The criteria for cancelling a takeoff clearance is an immediate safety threat. A "loss of separation" can mean a runway incursion, especially at the circus that is Kennedy during the late afternoon push. Controllers are NOT allowed to cancel a clearance for flow, or traffic management.
In the real world, I've never had a controller cancel a takeoff clearance. There has been a couple of times they probably should have cancelled a landing clearance and a couple of times they cancelled a landing clearance with traffic directly in the missed approach path.
Carl
06-22-2011, 06:28 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Carl,
You and I agree. The operative part of the conversation is "if you comply with our instructions and crash the airplane ... it's on you .... . If you don't comply with our instructions ... it's on you." Hence the reason Captains get paid more than First Officers and why none of us are paid for the real responsibility we accept.
Just got calls from a couple of former co-workers at a previous airline. It is amazing the sort of stuff that is passed down to a Captain on a 40 minute flight with no alternate fuel, pop up thunderstorms, complex AD compliance issues and a field with intermittent weather reporting.
You and I agree. The operative part of the conversation is "if you comply with our instructions and crash the airplane ... it's on you .... . If you don't comply with our instructions ... it's on you." Hence the reason Captains get paid more than First Officers and why none of us are paid for the real responsibility we accept.
Just got calls from a couple of former co-workers at a previous airline. It is amazing the sort of stuff that is passed down to a Captain on a 40 minute flight with no alternate fuel, pop up thunderstorms, complex AD compliance issues and a field with intermittent weather reporting.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 06-22-2011 at 06:50 AM.
06-22-2011, 06:48 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Carl,
You and I agree. The operative part of the conversation is "if you comply with our instructions and crash the airplane ... it's on you .... . If you don't comply with our instructions ... it's on you." Hence the reason Captains get paid more than First Officers and why none of us are paid for the real responsibility we accept.
You and I agree. The operative part of the conversation is "if you comply with our instructions and crash the airplane ... it's on you .... . If you don't comply with our instructions ... it's on you." Hence the reason Captains get paid more than First Officers and why none of us are paid for the real responsibility we accept.
So why then do controllers get paid more than us?
rhetorical...
06-22-2011, 06:55 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
06-22-2011, 06:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,238
My question is what happened to the Egypt Air crew? I know if it was a US air carrier crew they'd be frog marched in front of the press by now and sold down the river.
It also seems that these international crews are NOT English proficient and barely have to be. They speak their native tongue when at home and fly to NY and back have to use very little English especially now with CPDLC. Instructions to change a frequency and flight level are much easier to comprehend and abide by than complex taxi instructions. Anytime instructions are a little more verbose I hear a lot more "say again" and/or really bad reabacks. I know flying over Europe and South America 90% of what I hear on the radio is NOT English and I am not talking on 121.5
This should be taken more seriously as it will contribute to more accidents. The mid air collision in Brazil is a fine example.
It also seems that these international crews are NOT English proficient and barely have to be. They speak their native tongue when at home and fly to NY and back have to use very little English especially now with CPDLC. Instructions to change a frequency and flight level are much easier to comprehend and abide by than complex taxi instructions. Anytime instructions are a little more verbose I hear a lot more "say again" and/or really bad reabacks. I know flying over Europe and South America 90% of what I hear on the radio is NOT English and I am not talking on 121.5
This should be taken more seriously as it will contribute to more accidents. The mid air collision in Brazil is a fine example.
06-22-2011, 07:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Ok Satch,
If he said it, that's fine. Either way, things are not as bad as they could be. 3 months ago everyone was panicked over the Middle East and fuel prices. Yet, today we have a bid where it seems that more people moved up than moved down. It also seems that a lot of the folks that went down had some fairly good choices to make. I think the uncreased utilization of the 330's helped things immensely. Things will get better soon, so keep your head up.
New K <==== Still on the DC-9
If he said it, that's fine. Either way, things are not as bad as they could be. 3 months ago everyone was panicked over the Middle East and fuel prices. Yet, today we have a bid where it seems that more people moved up than moved down. It also seems that a lot of the folks that went down had some fairly good choices to make. I think the uncreased utilization of the 330's helped things immensely. Things will get better soon, so keep your head up.
New K <==== Still on the DC-9
06-22-2011, 07:04 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
06-22-2011, 07:07 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I was surprised at this one myself. A "Cancel Takeoff Clearance" statement from ATC simply means that they've lost separation per their requirements. It is NOT a command to abort the takeoff. At a recent meeting with an ATC supervisory team, they said aborting the takeoff is up to the crew, we just have to advise them when separation has been lost and cancel their clearance. I was appalled, but that's what they said.
Carl
Carl
But I'll cover for ATC because I've been covered a lot of times.
06-22-2011, 07:20 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Retired, again...
Posts: 608
I got a "cancel takeoff clearance" once up in CLE when the other tower controller cleared trucks across the runway. For a few minutes CLE thought we took off without a takeoff clearance, in fact said so over the frequency, before they realized what had happened and we called them on the phone later and they were like "sorry bout that, bye!" ?
But I'll cover for ATC because I've been covered a lot of times.
But I'll cover for ATC because I've been covered a lot of times.
Many years ago during the late Southeast Asia war games, two Navy F4's launched off the boat with drop tanks. One of them got a drop tank fire. I believe it was the Airboss that broadcast " F4 off the cat, you're on fire, Eject, Eject".
Four F4 bubbas pulled the handles and left two airplanes. Navy guys feel free to correct my fuzzy memory, but once again the law of unintended consequences reared its' head. Might be applicable to this current issue that carl raised.
Regards to all....
06-22-2011, 07:21 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Virgin Atlantic pilots vote for a strike - CNN.com
Virgin Atlantic pilots vote for a strike
By the CNN Wires Staff
June 21, 2011 3:48 p.m. EDT
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
"There has been no UK strike for 32 years," a union official says
The overwhelming majority of pilots vote in favor of a strike
Virgin Atlantic says its offer is double the national average for a UK business
(CNN) -- Pilots of the British business mogul Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic Airways have broken with tradition and voted in favor of the picket line over a pay proposal, a first in the airlines' history.
"We are naturally disappointed with the result of the ballot but remain committed to further talks with our pilots' representatives to find a solution," Virgin Atlantic said in a statement issued Tuesday.
Representatives from the British Airline Pilots Association, the main union for the United Kingdom's commercial pilots, claim Virgin Atlantic pilots have not had a pay increase since 2008.
Pilots do not want to strike, but are being driven to strike and are hugely disappointed by the company's approach, said Jim McAuslan, general secretary for the pilots association.
He added that pilots were offered increases below inflation for the next two and a half years.
Union representatives said 97% of the pilots who voted were favor of a strike, and 94% of the membership voted.
"The size of the poll and the huge majority for action should send a clear message to Sir Richard Branson," McAuslan said. "There has been no UK pilot strike for 32 years. But there comes a time when even moderate people say 'enough.'"
Virgin Atlantic representatives said they have made an offer to the pilots union that is double the national average for a UK business.
"We value our pilots enormously and that is why we have offered three guaranteed pay rises in the next two and a half years and a share of company profits," Virgin Atlantic said in a written statement.
Airline representatives said they were optimistic that once the union communicated their offer to the pilots, a strike would be averted.
But the British Airline Pilots Association stood firm.
"Time is running out," McAuslan said. "If damage is to be avoided and passengers not inconvenienced, then Sir Richard needs to act now."
Virgin Atlantic representatives said contingency plans are in place to minimize the impact of a strike on consumers.
Virgin Atlantic pilots vote for a strike
By the CNN Wires Staff
June 21, 2011 3:48 p.m. EDT
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
"There has been no UK strike for 32 years," a union official says
The overwhelming majority of pilots vote in favor of a strike
Virgin Atlantic says its offer is double the national average for a UK business
(CNN) -- Pilots of the British business mogul Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic Airways have broken with tradition and voted in favor of the picket line over a pay proposal, a first in the airlines' history.
"We are naturally disappointed with the result of the ballot but remain committed to further talks with our pilots' representatives to find a solution," Virgin Atlantic said in a statement issued Tuesday.
Representatives from the British Airline Pilots Association, the main union for the United Kingdom's commercial pilots, claim Virgin Atlantic pilots have not had a pay increase since 2008.
Pilots do not want to strike, but are being driven to strike and are hugely disappointed by the company's approach, said Jim McAuslan, general secretary for the pilots association.
He added that pilots were offered increases below inflation for the next two and a half years.
Union representatives said 97% of the pilots who voted were favor of a strike, and 94% of the membership voted.
"The size of the poll and the huge majority for action should send a clear message to Sir Richard Branson," McAuslan said. "There has been no UK pilot strike for 32 years. But there comes a time when even moderate people say 'enough.'"
Virgin Atlantic representatives said they have made an offer to the pilots union that is double the national average for a UK business.
"We value our pilots enormously and that is why we have offered three guaranteed pay rises in the next two and a half years and a share of company profits," Virgin Atlantic said in a written statement.
Airline representatives said they were optimistic that once the union communicated their offer to the pilots, a strike would be averted.
But the British Airline Pilots Association stood firm.
"Time is running out," McAuslan said. "If damage is to be avoided and passengers not inconvenienced, then Sir Richard needs to act now."
Virgin Atlantic representatives said contingency plans are in place to minimize the impact of a strike on consumers.
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