tsquare

How can I say this nicely... FAIL

Carl Spackler

I was surprised at this one myself. A "Cancel Takeoff Clearance" statement from ATC simply means that they've lost separation per their requirements. It is NOT a command to abort the takeoff. At a recent meeting with an ATC supervisory team, they said aborting the takeoff is up to the crew, we just have to advise them when separation has been lost and cancel their clearance. I was appalled, but that's what they said.

Carl

Tomcat

Thanks ACL... I'll be commuting from ECP. Been flying out of MEM for the last year and a half. I crossed over to a North fleet on the first bid, coming to ATL with the bus.

Still have a place off of 30A. Been in Walton County since the beach was just sand dunes and seaoats. You're right, 30a is a long way from the Redneck Riviera.

TC

tsquare

Methinks that if you are correct (And I have no reason to doubt you) that ALPA should be lobbying for different terminology. You know the Safety for All thing... Back in the 60s and 70s when the runways weren't littered with airplanes, it was no big deal, and probably was a rare occurrence.. now however....

Carl Spackler

Sorry, didn't notice you edited your post. The use of emergency authority isn't necessary, because cancelling a takeoff clearance is not an ATC command to abort.

Again, I was stunned when I heard this. I'll bet that most pilots were like me and thought it meant they were saying you must abort the takeoff. But when I thought more about what they said, they're right. ATC could never take on the liability of telling a crew to abort their takeoff.

Carl

Tkline

How long does it take for the training dates to be posted usually? Going into my third training event in a year, but at least I get a paid move out of it! And with that said since I'll probably be displaced again in the fall, will the company still pay for my displacement move from this bid even if I'm displaced into a new base for the next AE?

Carl Spackler

Totally agree T. But what language should ATC use? Do we want to give them the ability to call ABORT, ABORT!? When separation has been lost after the initial clearance has been given, they are obliged to advise us of the event. What should the new language be??

Carl

tsquare

Good question. I would think that "loss of separation" could be simply stated as such. IF it is not an imminent threat, they should calmly state it. As long as the terminology is commonly known, all parties should be able to make a decision based on that. Now it sounds very gray....

Bucking Bar

Me thinks the FAA management might have screwed up in the way they phrased their presentation.

Compliance with any clearance is up to crew discretion. But we'd better either be under emergency authority or have a very good reason why continuing was the safest course of action.

The criteria for cancelling a takeoff clearance is an immediate safety threat. A "loss of separation" can mean a runway incursion, especially at the circus that is Kennedy during the late afternoon push. Controllers are NOT allowed to cancel a clearance for flow, or traffic management.

In the real world, I've never had a controller cancel a takeoff clearance. There has been a couple of times they probably should have cancelled a landing clearance and a couple of times they cancelled a landing clearance with traffic directly in the missed approach path.

Carl Spackler

Apparently, ICAO has a statement they can use which is: "Stop Your Takeoff"...which is to be used only in life threatening situations. But according to our ATC sups, the US controllers have only "Cancel Takeoff Clearance."

Carl