Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-02-2011, 09:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
06-02-2011, 10:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,233
Today, Delta is flying 3 757-300's and 2 757's from MSP to SEA. Some of those aircraft will fly with the Alaska code on it. If you are going to have a code share then both sides are going to have to have some benefits. Why would Alaska management or the Alaska pilots ever agree to a deal where Delta gets to "own" flying in their hubs, but Alaska doesn't get to "own" flying in their hubs.
Using your analogy, the Alaska pilots should be offended by all those A-330's and 767's flying out of their hub in Seattle.
If Delta did not have a code share, what is the chance that Alaska would not fly from MSP to SEA? We don't have a code share with American and I see them flying from MSP to DFW, ORD, and other hubs. Is that a Scope Failure?
Using your analogy, the Alaska pilots should be offended by all those A-330's and 767's flying out of their hub in Seattle.
If Delta did not have a code share, what is the chance that Alaska would not fly from MSP to SEA? We don't have a code share with American and I see them flying from MSP to DFW, ORD, and other hubs. Is that a Scope Failure?
Do we do DFW - MSP. Last I saw it was all 76 seaters.
Maybe we need to dump the code???
Edit: I guess we do now have 2 daily 319s. Last time I tried to non rev, it was ALL 76 seaters!
06-02-2011, 10:37 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
I had a fnwa 330 guy in our js last week and he said the talk on the street in SEA is 150-200. Lots of guys who came out of ANC supposedly are bailing.
Last edited by buzzpat; 06-02-2011 at 11:02 AM.
06-02-2011, 11:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
06-02-2011, 11:05 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
06-02-2011, 11:08 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
06-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The ones I talked to in NRT seemed very warm to the idea of leaving. Same with a bunch of whale drivers. I know if I had a pension or part, and was over 60 I would be gone to live on the beach in my condo. Life is just too good to pass that up.
06-02-2011, 11:11 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
alfa,
Like it or not, you, pineapple, and sailing or slow (I can't remember which one) are equated to be the ALPA insiders on APC, so forgive me if I confuse what one of you said earlier with what someone else said.
But, one of you told me that the reason Alaska was allowed to fly to Atlanta and Minneapolis from Seattle is because of scope language that NWA brought to the merger. If this is the case, pre-merger I NEVER remember seeing an Alaska airplane in Minneapolis. On the other hand, I do remember Alaska attempting to fly an NWA route (I can't remember which one), NWA pilots not being happy with it, and NWA responding by putting a daily 747-200 flight from SEA to ANC. Subsequently, Alaska Airlines changed their mind about flying the NWA route. (Maybe someone can refresh my memory on the details again. I'm getting old.)
Back then we flew EVERY flight between MSP and SEA and Alaska management and their pilots didn't have a problem with it. So, I'm not using analogies, I'm comparing the past to the present.
Presently, Alaska Airlines pilots are flying routes that we used to fly exclusively. In the past, they did not. So, presently I don't particularly care who would or should be offended by us doing the same flying out of the same places we used to fly out of now. What I do care about is what appears to be a loss of flying that we are more than capable of performing. If it is a loss of flying, the way I see it, we (DALPA) should be the offended ones. But, for some reason, we are not.
Obviously, something has changed. But, I wonder if it is the language and terms of our scope agreement or if it is the mindset of our DALPA leaders.
I just don't remember our scope agreement changing.
Like it or not, you, pineapple, and sailing or slow (I can't remember which one) are equated to be the ALPA insiders on APC, so forgive me if I confuse what one of you said earlier with what someone else said.
But, one of you told me that the reason Alaska was allowed to fly to Atlanta and Minneapolis from Seattle is because of scope language that NWA brought to the merger. If this is the case, pre-merger I NEVER remember seeing an Alaska airplane in Minneapolis. On the other hand, I do remember Alaska attempting to fly an NWA route (I can't remember which one), NWA pilots not being happy with it, and NWA responding by putting a daily 747-200 flight from SEA to ANC. Subsequently, Alaska Airlines changed their mind about flying the NWA route. (Maybe someone can refresh my memory on the details again. I'm getting old.)
Back then we flew EVERY flight between MSP and SEA and Alaska management and their pilots didn't have a problem with it. So, I'm not using analogies, I'm comparing the past to the present.
Presently, Alaska Airlines pilots are flying routes that we used to fly exclusively. In the past, they did not. So, presently I don't particularly care who would or should be offended by us doing the same flying out of the same places we used to fly out of now. What I do care about is what appears to be a loss of flying that we are more than capable of performing. If it is a loss of flying, the way I see it, we (DALPA) should be the offended ones. But, for some reason, we are not.
Obviously, something has changed. But, I wonder if it is the language and terms of our scope agreement or if it is the mindset of our DALPA leaders.
I just don't remember our scope agreement changing.
[UPDATE]
I just heard from my Council 1 rep (within 12 hours -pretty good, huh?).
After exchanging a few emails, here's what I take away from it:
* The Alaska flying into our hubs is permitted under our codeshare agreement.
* There is a formula that permits a certain amount of those flights that is connected to an amount of Delta flights.
* Alaska could have done the same flying under the NWA agreement.
* Alaska tried to do that contractually legal flying against NWA, but because NWA wanted to have their cake and eat it to, they retaliated against it, and forced Alaska off the route. (sounds like the NWA I remember
) * Because Alaska is so vested into code share agreements, no one wants to merge with them. ie, if DAL merged with them, they would lose all of the American traffic Alaska carries and vice versa. (Good news, because I don't want to merge with Alaska.)
The bottom line is Alaska could have flown to MSP before, but NWA made sure they didn't. Delta management's mindset is different than NWA's. What we see now is Delta following the codeshare agreement and a possible return of Alfa and I arguing about the pros and cons of having a mindset of winning at all costs. Boy, that was ugly.
06-02-2011, 11:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Let me see if I can paraphrase:
By having Alaska pilots fly the Delta code, Delta is able to be in markets it would otherwise be less or not profitable. As a result Delta is effectively offering more seatmiles without the associated overhead of flying it in-house.
The employees benefit because as the company is more profitable it is able to pay its employees more money.
Fast forward to 2025 (Hypothetical)The employees benefit because as the company is more profitable it is able to pay its employees more money.
Delta is the largest airline in the world with the most seatmiles of any airline out there. Delta flies an all wide-body fleet, and has contracts with various lift providers around the world to feed the operation. There are 5000 pilots on the seniority list and for the last 18 years not one pilot was furloughed. Captains pay is between $275-300/hour and FO pay is between $205-230.
By comparison Southwest airlines, now also a global carrier, ranks number two to Delta in seat-miles. The two companies are equally profitable, but Southwest chose to grow organically after a disastrous merger with Airtran in 2011. Southwest flies a mix of widebodies and narrowbodies on all of it's own routes. Southwest has 12000 pilots on its seniority list. At Southwest Captains pay is between $240-295/hour and FO pay is between $190-225.
Considering the above scenario:By comparison Southwest airlines, now also a global carrier, ranks number two to Delta in seat-miles. The two companies are equally profitable, but Southwest chose to grow organically after a disastrous merger with Airtran in 2011. Southwest flies a mix of widebodies and narrowbodies on all of it's own routes. Southwest has 12000 pilots on its seniority list. At Southwest Captains pay is between $240-295/hour and FO pay is between $190-225.
- Were we successful as a pilot group?
- Were we successful as a labor group?
Cheers
George
06-02-2011, 11:19 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
