Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-30-2011, 03:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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05-30-2011, 04:18 PM
On Reserve
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"Ignorant" is as biting as "bigot"...how about "misinformed" or "naive"? I'm a "glass half full" kind of optimist anyway. Wordsmithing performance reports for the Air Force for 20 years does this to you.
05-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Back on TDY
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05-30-2011, 04:27 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
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Great movie, too!
My favorite part is that he never puts his cup down.
Last edited by newKnow; 05-30-2011 at 08:32 PM.
05-30-2011, 05:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
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NERD ALERT (Like myself):
Gettysburg is on the History Channel -- right now.
(I'm sure my wife is sick of this by now.
)
Gettysburg is on the History Channel -- right now.
(I'm sure my wife is sick of this by now.
)
05-30-2011, 05:10 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
If we are going to make it that easy to violate our section 1, then lets just decertify and join the student council at SkyWest.
Alpha, ASA had scope over its code. Delta bought its code and it became Delta's. ALPA voted not to apply merger and fragmentation policy (after certain defined terms were changed at the request of the Major MEC's & it was rumored the Delta pilots threatened to leave ALPA had the vote not gone their way).
Management wanted the merger with NWA because of the jihad which would have erupted if they had tried to run it as an alter ego division as they had done before with their regional carriers. When they bought ASA, management did not quite know what to expect, but they received the "all clear" as ALPA climbed on board with the concept of outsourcing, justified through interest based bargaining. That was a mistake and it did not harm the regional guys. Failure to enforce scope harmed Delta pilots. Let me explain.
One result of not merging ASA & Comair was Delta pilots being furloughed while the regionals hired rapidly to replace them. Even you must admit, that is CLEAR evidence of a scope failure when one division of Delta flushes and hires those furloughed pilots to replace themselves at much lower wages. That is what happens when union leadership decides against unity.
Rinse, wash, repeat = Compass. The effect will be the same on junior Delta pilots.
All pilots deserve the same representational effort from our union (or we might as well just not bother).
Frankly, posts like yours typify why we keep making the same mistakes and getting the same results. Our MEC Admin has not learned anything from past errors and seems intent on proving they were right rather than looking at the numbers from the last decade and getting back to the basics of representation. People want the DPA to clean sweep the MEC. While I think that is a mistake, what does a member do when the union is run by people who are against unity?
Look at our election to the Merger Committee - what a head slapper. Good guy, intelligent, but against the NWA merger and integral in divesting Compass. Isn't the point of a merger committee ... UNITY?
Alpha, ASA had scope over its code. Delta bought its code and it became Delta's. ALPA voted not to apply merger and fragmentation policy (after certain defined terms were changed at the request of the Major MEC's & it was rumored the Delta pilots threatened to leave ALPA had the vote not gone their way).
Management wanted the merger with NWA because of the jihad which would have erupted if they had tried to run it as an alter ego division as they had done before with their regional carriers. When they bought ASA, management did not quite know what to expect, but they received the "all clear" as ALPA climbed on board with the concept of outsourcing, justified through interest based bargaining. That was a mistake and it did not harm the regional guys. Failure to enforce scope harmed Delta pilots. Let me explain.
One result of not merging ASA & Comair was Delta pilots being furloughed while the regionals hired rapidly to replace them. Even you must admit, that is CLEAR evidence of a scope failure when one division of Delta flushes and hires those furloughed pilots to replace themselves at much lower wages. That is what happens when union leadership decides against unity.
Rinse, wash, repeat = Compass. The effect will be the same on junior Delta pilots.
All pilots deserve the same representational effort from our union (or we might as well just not bother).
Frankly, posts like yours typify why we keep making the same mistakes and getting the same results. Our MEC Admin has not learned anything from past errors and seems intent on proving they were right rather than looking at the numbers from the last decade and getting back to the basics of representation. People want the DPA to clean sweep the MEC. While I think that is a mistake, what does a member do when the union is run by people who are against unity?
Look at our election to the Merger Committee - what a head slapper. Good guy, intelligent, but against the NWA merger and integral in divesting Compass. Isn't the point of a merger committee ... UNITY?
First, no one wants to make it easy to violate scope, so I don't know why you start with this emotional statement. Both the DAL and NWA contracts allowed management to own subsidiaries as long as those subsidiaries flew permitted aircraft. ASA, Comair, Compass, Mesaba, were all examples of this. Now I understand your argument that this is NOT how you want our Section 1 to read, but in fact Section 1 was not violated by any of those transactions, at either airline, so let's not start with a scope violation.
I don't know what ASA's section 1 was so I can't comment on that. Certainly if the ASA pilots felt their contract was violated they should have filed a grievance. Now the part about rumors and people leaving ALPA. Bunk. A PID wasn't initiated because Delta management had the right operate ASA separately and they did not want to merge the two entities. The people that own and run the companies make these decisions, not the employees. It is that simple. All the rest is hogwash. If the ASA pilots wanted to force a merger, all they had to do was buy Delta and ASA and then they could do whatever they want. Until then, the real owners get to make those decisions.
Delta bought Northwest (or Northwest bought Delta, I really don't care) because each airline was weaker alone rather than together. After that transaction was announced, Delta and Northwest management knew that they had to integrate the seniority lists because both contracts made it mandatory. Our seniority lists were merged, each contract was followed, no Scope violation.
Okay, I admit that is was awful when ASA and Comair were hiring and Delta was furloughing. We tried initially to set up a flow through (back when we all were hiring) but were told absolutely no by ASA and Comair MEC's. Flow through is not the answer but it could have been a first step. That step was never taken and it was a shame. You need to answer this one question: If employees could just merge companies on their own, why didn't ASA and Comair pilots do their own transaction? Why wait for Delta pilots? Why did you allow this whipsaw to continue?
My post was only to correct the glaring inaccuracies posted by you and Mesabah. I did not state how we should move forward. Make me king of the world and I would work to merge all connection carriers into Delta. I am not king of the world so we will have to work one step at a time. Certainly posting fantasy renderings of the past will not help in that process one little bit.
05-30-2011, 05:14 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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05-30-2011, 05:27 PM
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05-30-2011, 05:29 PM
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05-30-2011, 05:29 PM
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Posts: 19,614
If we are going to make it that easy to violate our section 1, then lets just decertify and join the student council at SkyWest.
Alpha, ASA had scope over its code. Delta bought its code and it became Delta's. ALPA voted not to apply merger and fragmentation policy (after certain defined terms were changed at the request of the Major MEC's & it was rumored the Delta pilots threatened to leave ALPA had the vote not gone their way).
Management wanted the merger with NWA because of the jihad which would have erupted if they had tried to run it as an alter ego division as they had done before with their regional carriers. When they bought ASA, management did not quite know what to expect, but they received the "all clear" as ALPA climbed on board with the concept of outsourcing, justified through interest based bargaining. That was a mistake and it did not harm the regional guys. Failure to enforce scope harmed Delta pilots. Let me explain.
One result of not merging ASA & Comair was Delta pilots being furloughed while the regionals hired rapidly to replace them. Even you must admit, that is CLEAR evidence of a scope failure when one division of Delta flushes and hires those furloughed pilots to replace themselves at much lower wages. That is what happens when union leadership decides against unity.
Rinse, wash, repeat = Compass. The effect will be the same on junior Delta pilots.
All pilots deserve the same representational effort from our union (or we might as well just not bother).
Frankly, posts like yours typify why we keep making the same mistakes and getting the same results. Our MEC Admin has not learned anything from past errors and seems intent on proving they were right rather than looking at the numbers from the last decade and getting back to the basics of representation. People want the DPA to clean sweep the MEC. While I think that is a mistake, what does a member do when the union is run by people who are against unity?
Look at our election to the Merger Committee - what a head slapper. Good guy, intelligent, but against the NWA merger and integral in divesting Compass. Isn't the point of a merger committee ... UNITY?
Alpha, ASA had scope over its code. Delta bought its code and it became Delta's. ALPA voted not to apply merger and fragmentation policy (after certain defined terms were changed at the request of the Major MEC's & it was rumored the Delta pilots threatened to leave ALPA had the vote not gone their way).
Management wanted the merger with NWA because of the jihad which would have erupted if they had tried to run it as an alter ego division as they had done before with their regional carriers. When they bought ASA, management did not quite know what to expect, but they received the "all clear" as ALPA climbed on board with the concept of outsourcing, justified through interest based bargaining. That was a mistake and it did not harm the regional guys. Failure to enforce scope harmed Delta pilots. Let me explain.
One result of not merging ASA & Comair was Delta pilots being furloughed while the regionals hired rapidly to replace them. Even you must admit, that is CLEAR evidence of a scope failure when one division of Delta flushes and hires those furloughed pilots to replace themselves at much lower wages. That is what happens when union leadership decides against unity.
Rinse, wash, repeat = Compass. The effect will be the same on junior Delta pilots.
All pilots deserve the same representational effort from our union (or we might as well just not bother).
Frankly, posts like yours typify why we keep making the same mistakes and getting the same results. Our MEC Admin has not learned anything from past errors and seems intent on proving they were right rather than looking at the numbers from the last decade and getting back to the basics of representation. People want the DPA to clean sweep the MEC. While I think that is a mistake, what does a member do when the union is run by people who are against unity?
Look at our election to the Merger Committee - what a head slapper. Good guy, intelligent, but against the NWA merger and integral in divesting Compass. Isn't the point of a merger committee ... UNITY?
This post is so factually incorrect that it might as well be pure fiction. I am sure others will jump in. Just to keep a couple of key facts. Delta was and is permitted to operate feeder airlines. DALPA has no say at all in a choice to merge those airlines. We don't today and never did. Management decides to merge companies not pilots unless we have specific clauses in our contract.
In the case of NWA an Delta both airlines had specific clauses in their contract that required the lists and airlines be merged. Management had no choice.
It was never a option for Dalpa to merge any feeder airlines seniority list into ours. Management maintains and controls the seniority list in compliance with our contract. The best we could have done is ask management to please merge the airlines and the answer would always have been not a chance in hell from management.
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