Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-30-2011, 04:53 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I've thought the exact same thing for years.
If the airline can't afford to pay, the airline does not need to exist. I personally think longevity pay should be taken away. I don't think it's right that pilots make different amounts of money flying the exact same plane at the exact same airline. I make close to $100/hour while a new hire makes around $55/hour to do the exact same job. Our maximum pay on the aircraft should be the pay for everyone. Then switching airlines would not be so hard financially on us. As it is now, the bigger aircraft pay more money. Let pilots use their seniority to bid to bigger aircraft thus making more money. Let me be clear. In my system, the pay is based on our current maximum pay scales. I don't want anyone to take a pay cut. I want the bottom guys brought up. It would take a real union to make this happen. We don't have that.
If the airline can't afford to pay, the airline does not need to exist. I personally think longevity pay should be taken away. I don't think it's right that pilots make different amounts of money flying the exact same plane at the exact same airline. I make close to $100/hour while a new hire makes around $55/hour to do the exact same job. Our maximum pay on the aircraft should be the pay for everyone. Then switching airlines would not be so hard financially on us. As it is now, the bigger aircraft pay more money. Let pilots use their seniority to bid to bigger aircraft thus making more money. Let me be clear. In my system, the pay is based on our current maximum pay scales. I don't want anyone to take a pay cut. I want the bottom guys brought up. It would take a real union to make this happen. We don't have that.
Portable seniority.. uh.. no.
Exact same pay for everyone? really? Give me a few examples of where anyone that does "exactly the same job" who is a new hire makes the same coin as someone that has been around for 20 years.. Take your time. Soviet Russia doesn't count...
05-30-2011, 04:55 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
The single bigggest problem we have always had in this career field is, there is zero sideways mobility.
When you get hired at a Major, and get your seniority number, you are pretty much locked into that one airline the rest of your carreer, unless they go under, ask anyone at Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff or any of the many other, one time great, carriers who are no longer with us. And if/when that happens, if you want to contine to be an airline pilot, you must start at the bottom of a new list, regardless of how many years of experience you have.
The system we have now has many flaws, no doubt. And any new system will also have flaws, there is no perfect solution. The question is, will it be better or worse, long term?
Here's something else to think about re. heavy pay vs. light pay.
What If...when the 787's (or A350's) finally come on line, the Majors who are today operating 747's and 777's replace all those larger jets with the (smaller) 787's? Delta did this years ago when they replaced 55 L10-11's with the smaller, lighter, less pax capacity 767 Er's. Pay cuts all around.
What if in the future, they replace the MD88/90 fleet with some new 100 seater? More of the same. ALPA's current pay formula (GW, seats, speeds) only improves our pay when airplanes are getting bigger. It works against us when airplanes get smaller.
When you get hired at a Major, and get your seniority number, you are pretty much locked into that one airline the rest of your carreer, unless they go under, ask anyone at Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff or any of the many other, one time great, carriers who are no longer with us. And if/when that happens, if you want to contine to be an airline pilot, you must start at the bottom of a new list, regardless of how many years of experience you have.
The system we have now has many flaws, no doubt. And any new system will also have flaws, there is no perfect solution. The question is, will it be better or worse, long term?
Here's something else to think about re. heavy pay vs. light pay.
What If...when the 787's (or A350's) finally come on line, the Majors who are today operating 747's and 777's replace all those larger jets with the (smaller) 787's? Delta did this years ago when they replaced 55 L10-11's with the smaller, lighter, less pax capacity 767 Er's. Pay cuts all around.
What if in the future, they replace the MD88/90 fleet with some new 100 seater? More of the same. ALPA's current pay formula (GW, seats, speeds) only improves our pay when airplanes are getting bigger. It works against us when airplanes get smaller.
05-30-2011, 04:58 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
You bring up a good point; though you do realize that any alternative will be a paycut for you, don't you? As a 777 Captain, going to longevity based pay, or flattening the payscales in anyway, is a paycut to you, while the smaller equipment sees a pay raise. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but thought you might.
05-30-2011, 05:07 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
That would be getting into the nuances of all 12,000 pilots and somehow ensure that for the next 10, 20 or 30 years they don't change their mind on what aircraft they want to fly, never move, never get divorced and so on.
It's reasonable to assume their career expectation is to progress upwards and not camp out.
It's reasonable to assume their career expectation is to progress upwards and not camp out.
05-30-2011, 05:37 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
And soon as we get Longevity Pay I'll be bidding...what ever is flying to a 24 hr. layover in St. Maarten! Lufthanza has it and their junior pilots are -forced- to fly the 747's around the world on 14 day trips, while their most senior pilots fly the 737 shuttle out of Berlin and go home every night.
That should tell you something.
That should tell you something.
05-30-2011, 06:31 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I don't consider you or I as a back door entrant to the new Delta. I was hired in the early 80's at a time when almost nobody was hiring after a grueling interview process and three day physical at the Mayo Clinic. I'm sure your process was something similar. That process is important if you want to fly for a major - all you have to do is get through it.
No I can't. When it comes to the decision of entering into a corporate merger, that is entirely the purview of the board of directors. Not the union, and not some line pilot.
You seem to think there's another choice. There isn't. Unions don't decide if there will be a corporate merger, or who you will merge with.
Of course our union would represent any pilot group that management decided to merge with.
That'd be great. After I won the lawsuit, my proceeds and back pay would have made for one wonderful paid vacation. But your loathing of senior pilots is starting show...again.
In my first five years at the major airline business, I was furloughed 5 times. No furlough pay, no COBRA benefits, no union help. That's the way it was back then. You don't forget that. You prepare yourself for starting over at any time. You never consider this job permanent. At least I've never been able to.
Carl
You seem to think there's another choice. There isn't. Unions don't decide if there will be a corporate merger, or who you will merge with.
Of course our union would represent any pilot group that management decided to merge with.
In my first five years at the major airline business, I was furloughed 5 times. No furlough pay, no COBRA benefits, no union help. That's the way it was back then. You don't forget that. You prepare yourself for starting over at any time. You never consider this job permanent. At least I've never been able to.
Carl
05-30-2011, 06:31 AM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Ummm...really? Source? Sounds like an emotional response to me Mesabah...
I think SWA is a great choice of airline to work for and now they set the bar...I highly doubt many Legacy pilots desire to start at the bottom of a SWA/AirTran seniority list. Those famous 6 year upgrades are LONG gone!!
However, please feel free to "educate" me!!
I think SWA is a great choice of airline to work for and now they set the bar...I highly doubt many Legacy pilots desire to start at the bottom of a SWA/AirTran seniority list. Those famous 6 year upgrades are LONG gone!!
However, please feel free to "educate" me!!
No, I wouldn't expect a Delta guy that has been there for 10 years or more to apply to SW, but 10 year pay at delta is 3rd year pay at southwest. Perhaps the employees at Southwest are just saying this out of arrogance, I don't know.
05-30-2011, 06:39 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
You will see this disparity go away in the next Delta contract beginning 1 Jan 2013. As has been stated many times before, prior to 9/11 Delta's wage structure significantly exceeded SWA's pay scales as well as many others. With the merger complete and $1.4 Billion in profit in 2010 this will be the next step.
05-30-2011, 06:40 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 19
What happened with Delta Air Elite that caused them to violate your contract?
05-30-2011, 06:42 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
No.
Uh oh...
Oh yeah! Well you're a.......you're a.......conversational racist and poopy-head!
I believe no such thing. Almost every pilot in America IS represented, and that is a must in our business. You're starting to lose me here Bar...
What prejudice is that? Prejudiced against something you wrongly accuse me of believing? I've NEVER said every regional pilot has applied with a major and was turned down. What I DID say is that "most people like Mesabah (a CRJ700 Captain) have likely applied to the majors and didn't get on for whatever reason."
I don't mind you trying to slam me Bar, but at least try not to blatantly put words into my cyber-mouth.
Carl
Uh oh...
Oh yeah! Well you're a.......you're a.......conversational racist and poopy-head!
I don't mind you trying to slam me Bar, but at least try not to blatantly put words into my cyber-mouth.
Carl
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