Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-29-2011, 10:01 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
That is exactly what he and the other RJ folks are hoping for. They've almost surely interviewed at the majors, and for whatever reason, they didn't get on. This would be the back-door entrance.
Economics and congestion makes our current Section 1 weaknesses a dead issue if we just hold the line right here. Then as economics kill off the 76 seaters, we can grow Delta organically...with pilots that we choose. THAT'S the biggest fear of people like Mesabah. Their only hope is to scare major pilots into a belief that merging with RJ carriers is the way to ensure our jobs won't be outsourced...which is obviously incorrect.
Carl
Economics and congestion makes our current Section 1 weaknesses a dead issue if we just hold the line right here. Then as economics kill off the 76 seaters, we can grow Delta organically...with pilots that we choose. THAT'S the biggest fear of people like Mesabah. Their only hope is to scare major pilots into a belief that merging with RJ carriers is the way to ensure our jobs won't be outsourced...which is obviously incorrect.
Carl
05-29-2011, 10:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
What's bolded above is SUCH a critical point and provides us a shot at salvation. Since the 1974 court case that sets the precedent regarding Scope, management has NO LEGAL ALTERNATIVE if we disagree to any changes in Section 1. The NMB is legally obliged to remove any Section 1 changes from the bargaining table if WE just say no. Everything else is hard negotiations, but with Section 1 changes, we only have to say no. This puts us in the driver's seat because economics and traffic congestion is rapidly killing 50 seaters and will soon kill off 76 seaters. Management's ONLY HOPE is that we ALLOW higher than 76 seat jets. If we simply don't, management is stuck with a Section 1 that is meaningless...unlimited use of jets that will do nothing but lose them money.
If we hold the line on Scope right here ladies and gentlemen, time and economics will make our current Section 1 weaknesses irrelevant. Now whether ALPA/DALPA will grieve any blatant violations of our Scope, the obvious answer there is no. But at least we can control whether we keep ALPA. We lose all options if we give one more inch on Scope.
Carl
If we hold the line on Scope right here ladies and gentlemen, time and economics will make our current Section 1 weaknesses irrelevant. Now whether ALPA/DALPA will grieve any blatant violations of our Scope, the obvious answer there is no. But at least we can control whether we keep ALPA. We lose all options if we give one more inch on Scope.
Carl
Denny
05-29-2011, 10:35 PM
Da Hudge
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Just finished my quarterly CQ. The disc makes a great frisbee for the dog to chase around after you're done with it. 
05-30-2011, 02:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
I agree with almost everything you say. We definitely need to hold the line on Scope and what you describe will most likely come true. But, DALPA is grieving the Delta Air Elite violation. I do think DALPA should "press to test" on the Republic situation but, unfortunately, the writing seems to be on the wall there. I, personally, am not yet at the point of giving up on them. I try to look on the half full side but it is becoming more difficult!
Denny
Denny
Delta Air Elite is a violation of our contract. Republic holdings is something you don't like but not a violation of the contract. Even if it were a violation and we won in the grievance process it would not have any major impact on pilot manning at Delta. Arbitrators are always sensitive to the operations of the airlines. They would give management a time frame to come into compliance with their ruling. Probably 12 months or so. Management would simply move all those RJ's to other carriers. It would take them a matter of days to rehire outsourced lift. They would have to end up paying out a bunch of cash to Republic to cancel the contract however the airframes would still be flying for Delta without Delta pilots.
05-30-2011, 04:01 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
That is of course, just your opinion. The outcome of the grievance will determine what is factual.
That is of course, just your opinion. The outcome of the grievance will determine what is factual. Oops...since ALPA will refuse to file a grievance, opinion is all we'll ever have on this.
Complete and total speculation on your part.
Who cares. You defend all sections of your contract regardless of whether or not management may be able to get around it in some other way. Unless of course it is ALPA and Scope...then there will be no defense of that.
Carl
Management would simply move all those RJ's to other carriers. It would take them a matter of days to rehire outsourced lift. They would have to end up paying out a bunch of cash to Republic to cancel the contract however the airframes would still be flying for Delta without Delta pilots.
Carl
05-30-2011, 04:03 AM
Can't abide NAI
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Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Carl, would you characterize the NWA merger as the back door?
As a union member and proponent for a more aggressive representational entity can you clearly delineate which pilots we might merge with that you feel deserve a merger? Would you wait for management to tell you who THEY wanted, or would your union represent pilots? What if management decided they wanted to flush your senior keester to the street while keeping us junior (cheaper) guys? How would you feel about starting over at age ... ?
Do you think your airline hiring replacement pilots at the "regional" while simultaneously furloughing mainline pilots is acceptable?
Do you consider yourself a bigot?
Carl, I like you, but you are a representational bigot. You believe some pilots deserve representation while others do not. You base this on your prejudice, with your guess as to every regional pilot having applied for a major job and having been turned down. Apparently you have forgotten:
The answer is also clear. We need to stop outsourcing by either cutting the contracts, not renewing them, or making them all Delta pilots. The most economically viable plan (and thus the most likely to succeed) is in our merger and fragmentation policies. We could have simply flushed the NWA pilots (as your Reps accused us of trying to do). Aren't you glad your union provided you the same representation it did Delta pilots?
As a union member and proponent for a more aggressive representational entity can you clearly delineate which pilots we might merge with that you feel deserve a merger? Would you wait for management to tell you who THEY wanted, or would your union represent pilots? What if management decided they wanted to flush your senior keester to the street while keeping us junior (cheaper) guys? How would you feel about starting over at age ... ?
Do you think your airline hiring replacement pilots at the "regional" while simultaneously furloughing mainline pilots is acceptable?
Do you consider yourself a bigot?
Carl, I like you, but you are a representational bigot. You believe some pilots deserve representation while others do not. You base this on your prejudice, with your guess as to every regional pilot having applied for a major job and having been turned down. Apparently you have forgotten:
- Since we outsourced half our flying, there are not as many "major" jobs
- The "majors" have shrunk to the point what we used to call regionals are now majors. We are considered a "Legacy" carrier
- As the regionals became majors (including Southwest and Republic) their pay and working conditions have improved to the point for many people there is no financial pay back for having to start over ... (for instance, as your contract and equipment stood in 2007, the numbers said there was scant difference between NWA and staying put at my regional)
- Age 65 resulted in tremendous stagnation, we've only hired around 1,000 pilots in the last decade. (our decision to kick Compass out was nearly 50% of Delta hiring in the last ten years!)
The answer is also clear. We need to stop outsourcing by either cutting the contracts, not renewing them, or making them all Delta pilots. The most economically viable plan (and thus the most likely to succeed) is in our merger and fragmentation policies. We could have simply flushed the NWA pilots (as your Reps accused us of trying to do). Aren't you glad your union provided you the same representation it did Delta pilots?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-30-2011 at 04:22 AM.
05-30-2011, 04:05 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Delta Air Elite is a violation of our contract. Republic holdings is something you don't like but not a violation of the contract. Even if it were a violation and we won in the grievance process it would not have any major impact on pilot manning at Delta. Arbitrators are always sensitive to the operations of the airlines. They would give management a time frame to come into compliance with their ruling. Probably 12 months or so. Management would simply move all those RJ's to other carriers. It would take them a matter of days to rehire outsourced lift. They would have to end up paying out a bunch of cash to Republic to cancel the contract however the airframes would still be flying for Delta without Delta pilots.
Something had to be done about Delta Private Jets. It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be. Obviously we need to avoid the situation that is going on with Thomas Cook.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-30-2011 at 04:27 AM.
05-30-2011, 04:29 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Delta Air Elite is a violation of our contract. Republic holdings is something you don't like but not a violation of the contract. Even if it were a violation and we won in the grievance process it would not have any major impact on pilot manning at Delta. Arbitrators are always sensitive to the operations of the airlines. They would give management a time frame to come into compliance with their ruling. Probably 12 months or so. Management would simply move all those RJ's to other carriers. It would take them a matter of days to rehire outsourced lift. They would have to end up paying out a bunch of cash to Republic to cancel the contract however the airframes would still be flying for Delta without Delta pilots.
But what if RAH is found to be STS?
And we know the aircraft will be transferred to another regional if RAH was kicked out, but, isn't it more important to end the funding of our competition such that money for Shuttle/CHQ doesn't go to feed Frontier nor will money to Skywest/ASA go to feed their aspirations?
Great post.
05-30-2011, 04:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
...................................
05-30-2011, 04:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Like what? Flying larger aircraft; isn't that for higher pay? Better schedule; isn't that for higher pay(work less for the same or more)? A more stable carrier; isn't that for maintaining pay? A better retirement; isn't that for higher pay?
All career expectations are in forms of compensation which have a monetary value assigned to them. Why does Southwest have so many applications from Delta pilots?
I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what the other forms are?
All career expectations are in forms of compensation which have a monetary value assigned to them. Why does Southwest have so many applications from Delta pilots?
I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what the other forms are?
I think SWA is a great choice of airline to work for and now they set the bar...I highly doubt many Legacy pilots desire to start at the bottom of a SWA/AirTran seniority list. Those famous 6 year upgrades are LONG gone!!
However, please feel free to "educate" me!!
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