Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-24-2011, 07:40 PM
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Honestly, I don't think that it'll go to arbitration. Arbitration still leaves too many unknowns for the group as a whole like 717 pay rates, bidding between aircraft, seniority issues with aircraft that are retired/sold/etc.
Upgrades are going pretty well at the moment. July shows plus 60 captain slots. The stagnation is pretty much over with the airplanes that are being delivered to SWA (both SWA orders and AirTrans orders going to SWA operations). School house is busy hiring another 180 plus guys to be on the line by this fall.
And yes, I do appreciate the fact that you Delta guys are concerned for me, but I seriously doubt that I'd be moved back to the right seat post-agreement unless we merge with super-cool major airlines like Delta that have all of your benefits on them (like ALPA policy). Maybe we could just all organize under SWAPA so that management would have to recognize scope protection.
Oh my, it seems I've worn out my welcome. Please invoke my name over here occasionally so that I feel invited in again.
Upgrades are going pretty well at the moment. July shows plus 60 captain slots. The stagnation is pretty much over with the airplanes that are being delivered to SWA (both SWA orders and AirTrans orders going to SWA operations). School house is busy hiring another 180 plus guys to be on the line by this fall.
And yes, I do appreciate the fact that you Delta guys are concerned for me, but I seriously doubt that I'd be moved back to the right seat post-agreement unless we merge with super-cool major airlines like Delta that have all of your benefits on them (like ALPA policy). Maybe we could just all organize under SWAPA so that management would have to recognize scope protection.
Oh my, it seems I've worn out my welcome. Please invoke my name over here occasionally so that I feel invited in again.
Last edited by LuvJockey; 05-24-2011 at 07:53 PM.
05-24-2011, 07:41 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I gotta agree with that. Domestic 737 trips are OK but flying the heavy jets over the big water is an experience I would not want to have missed in my career. The Asian cities are incredibly interesting but for pure enjoyment -- the summer layovers in Germany and Italy are truly superb.
Going to FCO next month... doing a TOE. Hopefully it is one of you clowns that have been sitting for 2 months waiting
Bring lots of cash if it is 
05-24-2011, 07:46 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
For a good read go to that "other" forum.....frightinfo......click on the 135 forum and read the delta private jets thread. The pilots there hate management and are all trying to leave. Looks like they want big daddy from ATL to come and clean house.
05-24-2011, 08:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
You honestly don't think that it will go to arbitration?
This is where you unquestionably display a lack of being able to put yourself into someone else's shoes.
If you were an Air Tran SLI negotiator, would you want to make any concession beyond relative seniority, only to have your entire pilot group blame you for them not getting their vacation, their weekends off, their great layover in AUA, or their base at home in LAS, for your entire career?
Even though you wish they would concede and bypass arbitration, it's not happening, my friend. Their negotiators would rather lay all the blame at the foot of the arbitrator -- so do yours.
Here's a bit of advice: Sit back,relax, enjoy the ride, don't take it so personal, and when you get real queasy, research previous arbitrator rulings and try to find awards that merged seniority lists based on W2 earnings and expectations.
Make sure you have a lot of time and a really powerful search engine for the last one.
05-24-2011, 08:02 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
They are sending me to re-establish currency because im well past the 90 days.
Although it would be fun to go with you to FCO i'm fine waiting this out as long as they let me
05-24-2011, 08:07 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I'd enjoy the vacation too...
05-24-2011, 08:29 PM
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Um Jockey,
You honestly don't think that it will go to arbitration?
This is where you unquestionably display a lack of being able to put yourself into someone else's shoes.
If you were an Air Tran SLI negotiator, would you want to make any concession beyond relative seniority, only to have your entire pilot group blame you for them not getting their vacation, their weekends off, their great layover in AUA, or their base at home in LAS, for your entire career?
Even though you wish they would concede and bypass arbitration, it's not happening, my friend. Their negotiators would rather lay all the blame at the foot of the arbitrator -- so do yours.
Here's a bit of advice: Sit back,relax, enjoy the ride, don't take it so personal, and when you get real queasy, research previous arbitrator rulings and try to find awards that merged seniority lists based on W2 earnings and expectations.
Make sure you have a lot of time and a really powerful search engine for the last one.
You honestly don't think that it will go to arbitration?
This is where you unquestionably display a lack of being able to put yourself into someone else's shoes.
If you were an Air Tran SLI negotiator, would you want to make any concession beyond relative seniority, only to have your entire pilot group blame you for them not getting their vacation, their weekends off, their great layover in AUA, or their base at home in LAS, for your entire career?
Even though you wish they would concede and bypass arbitration, it's not happening, my friend. Their negotiators would rather lay all the blame at the foot of the arbitrator -- so do yours.
Here's a bit of advice: Sit back,relax, enjoy the ride, don't take it so personal, and when you get real queasy, research previous arbitrator rulings and try to find awards that merged seniority lists based on W2 earnings and expectations.
Make sure you have a lot of time and a really powerful search engine for the last one.
Anyway, none of those previous ALPA policy based Relative seniority cases have anything to do with a four-party arbitration involving SWAPA, AT ALPA, SWA Management, and AT new management. SLI does not cover pay scales, bidding rules, or other major contract points, nor does it say anything other than "IF you are going to combine seniority lists, this is the one that you'll use."
That is why I believe we'll see a negotiated or mediated agreement made, and why it is critical to have a mediator involved that would become an arbitrator if the negotiations collapse.
05-24-2011, 08:30 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,016
As someone who has been benched twice in the last 3 years, I can tell you it's everything I thought it would be. I'm going to keep switching aircraft as much as possible to try for it again, especially when we really start hiring.
05-24-2011, 08:32 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Nope, I don't think that arbitration is the end game. Too many bad things that can happen even when you think that you've won. The problem with researching arbitration opinions is that most of the biggies have been done based on ALPA policy. Alpa policy is much more specific, but hasn't been any more successful in the USAir fiasco. The Republic/F9 merger had an award that is being sued over already. I think that I read somewhere that United is getting ready to decertify their union. I think that the reason the Delta/NWA agreement went so well is that the NWA guys had been beat down enough that they accepted a crummy deal.
Anyway, none of those previous ALPA policy based Relative seniority cases have anything to do with a four-party arbitration involving SWAPA, AT ALPA, SWA Management, and AT new management. SLI does not cover pay scales, bidding rules, or other major contract points, nor does it say anything other than "IF you are going to combine seniority lists, this is the one that you'll use."
That is why I believe we'll see a negotiated or mediated agreement made, and why it is critical to have a mediator involved that would become an arbitrator if the negotiations collapse.
Anyway, none of those previous ALPA policy based Relative seniority cases have anything to do with a four-party arbitration involving SWAPA, AT ALPA, SWA Management, and AT new management. SLI does not cover pay scales, bidding rules, or other major contract points, nor does it say anything other than "IF you are going to combine seniority lists, this is the one that you'll use."
That is why I believe we'll see a negotiated or mediated agreement made, and why it is critical to have a mediator involved that would become an arbitrator if the negotiations collapse.
05-24-2011, 08:57 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Nope, I don't think that arbitration is the end game. Too many bad things that can happen even when you think that you've won. The problem with researching arbitration opinions is that most of the biggies have been done based on ALPA policy. Alpa policy is much more specific, but hasn't been any more successful in the USAir fiasco. The Republic/F9 merger had an award that is being sued over already. I think that I read somewhere that United is getting ready to decertify their union. I think that the reason the Delta/NWA agreement went so well is that the NWA guys had been beat down enough that they accepted a crummy deal.
Anyway, none of those previous ALPA policy based Relative seniority cases have anything to do with a four-party arbitration involving SWAPA, AT ALPA, SWA Management, and AT new management. SLI does not cover pay scales, bidding rules, or other major contract points, nor does it say anything other than "IF you are going to combine seniority lists, this is the one that you'll use."
That is why I believe we'll see a negotiated or mediated agreement made, and why it is critical to have a mediator involved that would become an arbitrator if the negotiations collapse.
Anyway, none of those previous ALPA policy based Relative seniority cases have anything to do with a four-party arbitration involving SWAPA, AT ALPA, SWA Management, and AT new management. SLI does not cover pay scales, bidding rules, or other major contract points, nor does it say anything other than "IF you are going to combine seniority lists, this is the one that you'll use."
That is why I believe we'll see a negotiated or mediated agreement made, and why it is critical to have a mediator involved that would become an arbitrator if the negotiations collapse.
As far as a mediator switching to put an arbitrators hat on, it's highly unlikely. It defeats the purpose of the mediator.
I have no idea where you are coming from with the NWA guys were beat down so much they accepted a crummy deal thing either.
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