Bill Lumberg

After reading the article, it does seem like we are subsidizing Frontier (Republic). They determined themselves that high gas prices weren't allowing their own E170s flying for Frontier to be profitable, so they threw them on the Delta side, to also not be profitable (for Delta). It's profitable for Republic, though, but not for their own brand. Break even with Delta, or lose money on their own. Very smart of Bedford. What does Lee Moak think about this?

acl65pilot

I agree it has not been drawn. As to the second part, only if we vote for it, and if we do, we get everything we have coming at us.

Even I have my limits. Frankly, I do not blame ALPA for not drawing the line, or even DALPA. I blame us and the people we elect. A new organization will not fix this, new people, or strong force on the existing people will. Right now I see a few reps as strong advocates of scope, and all of the others now willing to sell any more. What we are seeing now with all of the 70 seaters arriving is exactly what we were told in Mach of 2009 at the LEC 44 meeting by the master chair. The company is exercising the contractual concession we allowed. Ugly, but true. Just remember it when it is time to vote.

acl65pilot

Not necessarily true. These are new airplanes and will be subject to different terms that the original CPA. These new agreements are more at risk for the operator. Places like Republic are more willing to sign these now, because they will try to make it up in cheaper labor and leasing costs. RJET specifically, wants this because its branded flying is getting killed. If anything it draws out the process and makes them a bigger target for another airline to acquire them.

hockeypilot44

The king of giving up scope is now running ALPA national. He personally picked the MEC. Nothing has changed. Nothing will change. We have no limits as to how much can be outsourced.

Pineapple Guy

Care to make a friendly wager?

I'll bet you $100 that the line DOESN'T move to 80 seats in the C2012 contract. I have faith in my MEC to hold the line at 76. Loser of the bet makes the $100 contribution to the Delta Pilots Charitable Fund. What say you?

Pineapple Guy

You obviously have no clue how ALPA works. The MEC Chairman doesn't pick the MEC; they are elected by their individual councils.

scambo1

I get where you are coming from, but with every outsourced jet the delta pilots lose more leverage...And your flow up moves farther into the future. I hope you can flow sooner rather than later and you can lump me into the RAH is too dangerous club. The truth is every time I get in a 70 or 90 seat jet, I know it should be at the mainline...regardless of which company currently flies it.

I find it interesting too that we (the APC scope police or loudmouth forum radicals) see a glaring hole in our scope agreement with Alaska, but at the same time, they are losing some of their flying (and Horizons flying) to skywest. This is currently in the form of the q400 a large and very efficient turboprop.

I also think that plane should be a mainline plane. It is kind of back to the future with turboprops due to their efficiency. It has nothing to do with public perception - except ticket price.

At the end of the day, scope has been an epic fail for both ALPA/DALPA and the Delta pilots. We, for whatever reason, were willing to, or told that it was okay, to trade our scope (the foundation of our contract) for improvements in other sections.

Now with the conflict of interest at ALPA national codified into the ALPA policy manual, we have to confer with regional carriers to change our scope section back to a more ironclad form...before the ALPA president signs a new contract. Some apologists will say this is not true, but it is.

Bottom line, we have weak lawyers that have a history (hindsight 20/20) of providing advice that has created a monster. Consider it a maze with no way out. This is probably why more and more pilots have become so disenfranchised with the whole ALPA line.

It is not personal with you at Compass. I personally feel we hosed you by not representing you therby enabling you to be sold. I wish we could have integrated your operation into ours, SLI and all, but that was apparently not the DALPA agenda.

hockeypilot44

No kidding. I know exactly how ALPA works. ALPA is a political machine. The current national president promoted the current MEC. The individual councils vote the way they are told to vote. This is how pensions are terminated, pilots under contract vote themselves paycuts (idiots), and scope is given away for nothing by pilots (morons). We do not think for ourselves. We have blind faith in a union that looks out for its own interest over ours'.

Pineapple Guy

Wow, I'm not sure I've ever seen a more insulting post.

You have just alleged that all pilots are too dumb to elect their own leaders to best represent their interests. Your fellow cockpit mates really appreciate your arrogance and disdain for their ability to think for themselves....

80ktsClamp

I'll put up another 100 to go along with that. No way the line is moving, and that is a FACT.