Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-25-2011, 06:48 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Turning practically every thread you post on into an alpa sucks thread is getting a little tiresome. I don't even read that tripe over there anymore... sadly, I am finding this thread a little less interesting as the days wane on too...
04-25-2011, 06:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 432
Okay, since we are on our own getting iCrew to work with Android.
Disclaimers:
1. You must already know how to change your Android Applications Settings to allow installation of non-Market Android applications.
2. This has been tested on, and only on, a Droid2 running Android 2.2(Froyo). I don't have a Android 3(Honeycomb) device to test.
3. If you are using an earlier version than 4b4 and it works, dont mess with it. If you are using 4b5 or 4 then this may help you with iCrew.
3. Use this information at your own risk.
This is how to install an older version of Firefox for Android that works with iCrew:
Optional step - Uninstall the current Firefox using Application Manager.
1. Use your phone web browser to go to "ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mobile/releases/4.0b4/android-r7/en-US/" WITHOUT THE QUOTATION MARKS
or you can try this link Index of /pub/mozilla.org/mobile/releases/4.0b4/android-r7/en-US
or type this link into your browser Index of /pub/mozilla.org/mobile/releases/4.0b4/android-r7/en-US
Download (click on) fennec-4.0b4.en-US.eabi-arm.apk
2. Find the file on your phone where it was downloaded and click on it.
3. Install the App.
4. When done installing launch Firefox and test deltanet and iCrew.
I selected Firefox version 4b4 because 4b5 and the latest version gave me problems in iCrew.
Good Luck and use at your own risk.
I'll try and follow this up with a Mac version to revert back to FF3.6 in OSX.
Disclaimers:
1. You must already know how to change your Android Applications Settings to allow installation of non-Market Android applications.
2. This has been tested on, and only on, a Droid2 running Android 2.2(Froyo). I don't have a Android 3(Honeycomb) device to test.
3. If you are using an earlier version than 4b4 and it works, dont mess with it. If you are using 4b5 or 4 then this may help you with iCrew.
3. Use this information at your own risk.
This is how to install an older version of Firefox for Android that works with iCrew:
Optional step - Uninstall the current Firefox using Application Manager.
1. Use your phone web browser to go to "ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mobile/releases/4.0b4/android-r7/en-US/" WITHOUT THE QUOTATION MARKS
or you can try this link Index of /pub/mozilla.org/mobile/releases/4.0b4/android-r7/en-US
or type this link into your browser Index of /pub/mozilla.org/mobile/releases/4.0b4/android-r7/en-US
Download (click on) fennec-4.0b4.en-US.eabi-arm.apk
2. Find the file on your phone where it was downloaded and click on it.
3. Install the App.
4. When done installing launch Firefox and test deltanet and iCrew.
I selected Firefox version 4b4 because 4b5 and the latest version gave me problems in iCrew.
Good Luck and use at your own risk.
I'll try and follow this up with a Mac version to revert back to FF3.6 in OSX.
Thanks, the link you posted did not work in my browser, but I did a google search for the apk link and found a website with this:
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mobile/re...S.eabi-arm.apk
click on that link on your android and it will start downloading to your phone
Here is the website I found it on:
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/questions/784283
tried it on my EVO and it works
04-25-2011, 06:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Nevermind,,,,,
Last edited by newKnow; 04-25-2011 at 07:15 PM.
04-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD88
Posts: 456
So I've been thinking...
A couple of things:
A couple of things:
- I said "minimum",
- Southwest Airlines says 717 pay will be 737 pay, keep that in mind, because what do we have that equals the DC9-30 also known as a 717? Nothing. We do have the larger DC9-50. So we'll make DC9-50 pay = Southwest pay.
- I am assuming that DALPA is good enough, especially with ALPA helping, to get us what SWAPA is able to get their pilots,
- I am assuming that Delta is as well run as Southwest such that it too can afford to pay Delta pilots what Southwest pays their pilots for equal work,
- So what then will pay be? Well here is 2011 pay adjusted to SWA pay and I'm sure 2012 will be better:
04-25-2011, 07:19 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
With their work rules and scope we'd be making probably more. Funny how alfa mentioned how much more their pilots fly. Back to reality, they fly the same or less than we do and get paid a crapload more on rigs.
04-25-2011, 07:22 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
This thread needs this to be restated:
04-25-2011, 07:27 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Here is the problem with your theory. It is not a theory; it has been put in practice by the APA over at American. Essentially, they took all of the forum advice and put it into practice. They regularly lambasted their management and opposed any move their management made to increase their revenue. Instead of doing an analysis of their industry and their company, they invented a new metric. They went back to some year in the 1980's and then added some made up inflation metric to the compensation from that year. They proclaimed that this was what a pilot was worth and set that as their contractual goal.
While certainly a worthy goal, the problem was that this goal was just made up with no regard for the market place they were operating in. What does a house cost? It's not what you bought it for, it's not what it was worth 5 years ago, it's not worth what you hope it's worth, it is worth what the market will bear. That is market economics.
You can try to convince me until the cows come home that we are "worth" some compensation level from some years past, but it's not me you have to convince. It's the NMB's opinion that matters. Remember, under the RLA our contract negotiations have no timeline, they have no set ending date, they literally can go on until we are all dead. They only timeline that can occur is when the NMB declares an impasse.
So after APA’s experiment of the entire forum plans let's examine the results. A couple of months ago, after four+ years of negotiating, the NMB told the APA that they were wasting their time and put them on indefinite hold. Just to put it into perspective, a similar result for us puts into April 2017. That's right 2017. It's not just that, it's that they have no path to get anything now. There really is no way forward for them. So if the Delta MEC is trying to find another way, it's not because people don't want more or deserve more, it's because they don't want to stand still for another 5 or 6 years and then come up with plan B.
You say that the JCBA is okay but not enough. Well how about zero, is that enough. CAL and UAL are in Section 6 negotiations along with their JCBA and they have returned zero so far. APA they are 0 for 4+ years now and it looks like at least another 2. LCC, they are 0 for 5 years and will probably get broken apart before they get another raise. So it makes 5% a year (including DC) look a lot better when you see all these other plans are returning zero.
So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets.
Maybe we just need to walk down the path of the APA for a while. We had all of these loony theories tested in the last round Chapter 11’s and they all failed, but apparently people have short memories. The American pilots are certainly fed up and chose a different path. Maybe we just need to flail around for several years and eventually the forum theories will be shown once again to be based on fantasy and not reality. The MEC will have a tough choice soon; pander to the loudest voices on the webboards or get money now. They can’t do both.
While certainly a worthy goal, the problem was that this goal was just made up with no regard for the market place they were operating in. What does a house cost? It's not what you bought it for, it's not what it was worth 5 years ago, it's not worth what you hope it's worth, it is worth what the market will bear. That is market economics.
You can try to convince me until the cows come home that we are "worth" some compensation level from some years past, but it's not me you have to convince. It's the NMB's opinion that matters. Remember, under the RLA our contract negotiations have no timeline, they have no set ending date, they literally can go on until we are all dead. They only timeline that can occur is when the NMB declares an impasse.
So after APA’s experiment of the entire forum plans let's examine the results. A couple of months ago, after four+ years of negotiating, the NMB told the APA that they were wasting their time and put them on indefinite hold. Just to put it into perspective, a similar result for us puts into April 2017. That's right 2017. It's not just that, it's that they have no path to get anything now. There really is no way forward for them. So if the Delta MEC is trying to find another way, it's not because people don't want more or deserve more, it's because they don't want to stand still for another 5 or 6 years and then come up with plan B.
You say that the JCBA is okay but not enough. Well how about zero, is that enough. CAL and UAL are in Section 6 negotiations along with their JCBA and they have returned zero so far. APA they are 0 for 4+ years now and it looks like at least another 2. LCC, they are 0 for 5 years and will probably get broken apart before they get another raise. So it makes 5% a year (including DC) look a lot better when you see all these other plans are returning zero.
So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets.
Maybe we just need to walk down the path of the APA for a while. We had all of these loony theories tested in the last round Chapter 11’s and they all failed, but apparently people have short memories. The American pilots are certainly fed up and chose a different path. Maybe we just need to flail around for several years and eventually the forum theories will be shown once again to be based on fantasy and not reality. The MEC will have a tough choice soon; pander to the loudest voices on the webboards or get money now. They can’t do both.
04-25-2011, 07:29 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Another way to look at it is that the guys over at American are stepping up and fighting the fight. There are fights worth fighting, even if everyone is telling you you're going to lose. Pilots need to realize, we're the ones that have the ultimate power.
The abuse of airline employees at the hands of the NMB and the government (which is bought and sold by the bankers running this whole mess) needs to be brought into the open and fought.
The abuse of airline employees at the hands of the NMB and the government (which is bought and sold by the bankers running this whole mess) needs to be brought into the open and fought.
Carl
04-25-2011, 07:34 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
So I've been thinking...
A couple of things:
A couple of things:
- I said "minimum",
- Southwest Airlines says 717 pay will be 737 pay, keep that in mind, because what do we have that equals the DC9-30 also known as a 717? Nothing. We do have the larger DC9-50. So we'll make DC9-50 pay = Southwest pay.
- I am assuming that DALPA is good enough, especially with ALPA helping, to get us what SWAPA is able to get their pilots,
- I am assuming that Delta is as well run as Southwest such that it too can afford to pay Delta pilots what Southwest pays their pilots for equal work,
- So what then will pay be? Well here is 2011 pay adjusted to SWA pay and I'm sure 2012 will be better:
04-25-2011, 07:43 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: B737 FO
Posts: 167
Here is the problem with your theory. It is not a theory; it has been put in practice by the APA over at American. Essentially, they took all of the forum advice and put it into practice. They regularly lambasted their management and opposed any move their management made to increase their revenue. Instead of doing an analysis of their industry and their company, they invented a new metric. They went back to some year in the 1980's and then added some made up inflation metric to the compensation from that year. They proclaimed that this was what a pilot was worth and set that as their contractual goal.
While certainly a worthy goal, the problem was that this goal was just made up with no regard for the market place they were operating in. What does a house cost? It's not what you bought it for, it's not what it was worth 5 years ago, it's not worth what you hope it's worth, it is worth what the market will bear. That is market economics.
You can try to convince me until the cows come home that we are "worth" some compensation level from some years past, but it's not me you have to convince. It's the NMB's opinion that matters. Remember, under the RLA our contract negotiations have no timeline, they have no set ending date, they literally can go on until we are all dead. They only timeline that can occur is when the NMB declares an impasse.
So after APA’s experiment of the entire forum plans let's examine the results. A couple of months ago, after four+ years of negotiating, the NMB told the APA that they were wasting their time and put them on indefinite hold. Just to put it into perspective, a similar result for us puts into April 2017. That's right 2017. It's not just that, it's that they have no path to get anything now. There really is no way forward for them. So if the Delta MEC is trying to find another way, it's not because people don't want more or deserve more, it's because they don't want to stand still for another 5 or 6 years and then come up with plan B.
You say that the JCBA is okay but not enough. Well how about zero, is that enough. CAL and UAL are in Section 6 negotiations along with their JCBA and they have returned zero so far. APA they are 0 for 4+ years now and it looks like at least another 2. LCC, they are 0 for 5 years and will probably get broken apart before they get another raise. So it makes 5% a year (including DC) look a lot better when you see all these other plans are returning zero.
So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets.
Maybe we just need to walk down the path of the APA for a while. We had all of these loony theories tested in the last round Chapter 11’s and they all failed, but apparently people have short memories. The American pilots are certainly fed up and chose a different path. Maybe we just need to flail around for several years and eventually the forum theories will be shown once again to be based on fantasy and not reality. The MEC will have a tough choice soon; pander to the loudest voices on the webboards or get money now. They can’t do both.
While certainly a worthy goal, the problem was that this goal was just made up with no regard for the market place they were operating in. What does a house cost? It's not what you bought it for, it's not what it was worth 5 years ago, it's not worth what you hope it's worth, it is worth what the market will bear. That is market economics.
You can try to convince me until the cows come home that we are "worth" some compensation level from some years past, but it's not me you have to convince. It's the NMB's opinion that matters. Remember, under the RLA our contract negotiations have no timeline, they have no set ending date, they literally can go on until we are all dead. They only timeline that can occur is when the NMB declares an impasse.
So after APA’s experiment of the entire forum plans let's examine the results. A couple of months ago, after four+ years of negotiating, the NMB told the APA that they were wasting their time and put them on indefinite hold. Just to put it into perspective, a similar result for us puts into April 2017. That's right 2017. It's not just that, it's that they have no path to get anything now. There really is no way forward for them. So if the Delta MEC is trying to find another way, it's not because people don't want more or deserve more, it's because they don't want to stand still for another 5 or 6 years and then come up with plan B.
You say that the JCBA is okay but not enough. Well how about zero, is that enough. CAL and UAL are in Section 6 negotiations along with their JCBA and they have returned zero so far. APA they are 0 for 4+ years now and it looks like at least another 2. LCC, they are 0 for 5 years and will probably get broken apart before they get another raise. So it makes 5% a year (including DC) look a lot better when you see all these other plans are returning zero.
So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets.
Maybe we just need to walk down the path of the APA for a while. We had all of these loony theories tested in the last round Chapter 11’s and they all failed, but apparently people have short memories. The American pilots are certainly fed up and chose a different path. Maybe we just need to flail around for several years and eventually the forum theories will be shown once again to be based on fantasy and not reality. The MEC will have a tough choice soon; pander to the loudest voices on the webboards or get money now. They can’t do both.
For the other airlines:
1. AA--I give them credit for holding their ground. They are in the unfortunate situation of working for a company that is in corporate limbo. The company seems to be wallowing around with no vision. As I am sure you are aware, there are rumors that AA will take a visit to BK court soon. Not the best environment to negotiate. They did take a confrontational tone with management--make no mistake, I am not advocating that this is the best way. For them it did not work. We can still have a working relationship with Delta while informing them that we expect our concessions to be valued in 2012. We do not have to resort to name calling and pitchforks to advocate our position. We are professionals and I expect us to act that way at contract time. Polite, but firm.
2. UCAL--I am hoping for the best here. To me it seems that the stickiest issue is that United management underestimated the pilots resolve with regards to scope. I think that they expected to put some dollar signs in front of the pilots and they would agree to allow 70 seaters. This did not work and the pilots are holding firm. (this is not official info, just what I have put together looking around on this interweb thing) Hopefully the shareholders will put enough pressure on the company to complete the merger that ALPA will have the leverage to keep the CAL line at 50 seats and sunset the United 70 seat agreements, all while providing significant gains in compensation. I also think this is where we missed an opportunity with the JCBA. We had some leverage, but the whole process seemed rushed. I understand our merger was in hard financial times an we did need to get something done somewhat quickly, but I think it was a mistake to extend the amendable date.
3. LCC--whole different animal here. The USAPA issue has caused both pilot groups to suffer. At this point maybe being broken up is best. If I am not mistaken the East side does have a snapback grievance pending that (like them or not) we all should hope they win.
4. SWA--The model we should be looking at. They did not start with the highest wages, but they have managed to secure pay raises and contractual gains even thought they were already the highest paid in the industry. They made it clear to management that they were a reason why the company was successful and they deserved increases. They did this all in a timely fashion without being confrontational. In addition they are probably looking at bigger gains with the AirTran merger. It can be done.
As for them flying a lot, yes they do. They also have excellent work rules that leads to better schedules, more time at home and a reasonable reserve life. I like a nice long overnight in a warm city as much as anyone else, but when I go to work I want to get paid the most amount of money for the least amount of time away from home (while getting adequate rest of course) I will give up 24 hours in AUA if it gets me home a few more days a month. There is a concern for the junior guys when productivity goes up and that should be looked at. I submit that their stronger scope language more than makes up for the positions lost over productivity. On top of that we have concerns (augmented crews, multiple fleets, etc.) that increase our headcount that SWA doesn't have to deal with--yet. So, no we will not be nor want to be like SWA in all facets. It is just hard to understand why Delta is flying large widebody aircraft internationally in some of the most challenging theaters in the world and our pilots are getting compensated less than the SWA pilot flying a 737 to IND.
Yes 5% (+DC) is better than nothing. I just don't want us to get in the habit of thinking our lower pay is acceptable. I am very open to listening to creative ways of increasing our W2's. In fact I hope we can come up with a few ways to bump our paychecks outside of the normal hourly rates. At the end of the day it is money in our pockets and QOL that counts. Right now most Delta pilots think that we do not have enough of either.
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