Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-21-2011, 08:04 AM
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[QUOTE=trlaketige;983504]
Whenever I went to a road show, they presented the changes in the TA and I don't ever once remembering the officers say "Vote Yes" or "Vote No". Unfortunately, they are in a no win situation. Don't give the pilots anything other than the big fact contract and make them read the entire thing before voting or go out and discuss the changes that had been agreed to and do some more hand holding.
What is the DPA's plan when we have a new TA for informing the pilot group on the changes?
It is US! WE VOTED EVERY SCOPE SALE.
Satchip, My problem with this is that ALPA spent millions to persuade the line pilot to vote that way. Alpa spends more time and money on propaganda to the pilots than the company. You must be told what to think. I'm done with that.
Jim
Satchip, My problem with this is that ALPA spent millions to persuade the line pilot to vote that way. Alpa spends more time and money on propaganda to the pilots than the company. You must be told what to think. I'm done with that.
Jim
What is the DPA's plan when we have a new TA for informing the pilot group on the changes?
04-21-2011, 08:14 AM
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1234, sorry I was going back farther than just the last fiasco. It has been my observation over the last 25 years that alpa has gotten the vote they desired just about every time.
Jim
Jim
04-21-2011, 08:35 AM
The Brown Dot +1
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Totally wrong Bar. DALPA has just surrendered on the RAH situation. We just lost because we surrendered. Even IF we recalled every officer and the new team filed a grievance, that email just made the case FOR management. DALPA knew that and did it for just that reason.
This will have very far reaching consequences between now and if/when we get our next contract. With this precedent, there are no more limits and no more scope protection. Delta can now maneuver into operating 747's or anything other aircraft via this corporate shell game. Our only hope is in the mercy of Delta management. If they want to systematically outsource every one of our jobs, it is now entirely within their legal right.
Carl
This will have very far reaching consequences between now and if/when we get our next contract. With this precedent, there are no more limits and no more scope protection. Delta can now maneuver into operating 747's or anything other aircraft via this corporate shell game. Our only hope is in the mercy of Delta management. If they want to systematically outsource every one of our jobs, it is now entirely within their legal right.
Carl
Carl;
Unfortunately, that is how I see it too.
04-21-2011, 08:42 AM
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Let me be among the first to give credit where credit is due. The initial after action report of the 19 April Special MEC Meeting looks positive, with our Association taking reasonable proactive steps to enforce our agreement.
Glad to see us tackling the protection of our charter flying. Also, they are looking hard at this RAH situation.
Captain O’Malley also reports the f-NWA Trip Rig Grievance should be advanced to a System Board, which was a big gripe for some here.
Tip of the hat in the direction of our MEC Chairman, the Reps and those who make this stuff happen.
Glad to see us tackling the protection of our charter flying. Also, they are looking hard at this RAH situation.
Captain O’Malley also reports the f-NWA Trip Rig Grievance should be advanced to a System Board, which was a big gripe for some here.
Tip of the hat in the direction of our MEC Chairman, the Reps and those who make this stuff happen.
I appreciate getting an email update on what happened in an MEC meeting within a day of the meeting. This is a different MEC than the LM administration.
I didn't read the RAH thing as resolved either and I see two possible scenarios developing:
Down the road the RAH issue is resolved and RAH is excluded from DCI flying, thus validating the intent of the language in our contract.
Or
RAH's status remains status qou in wich case there is a clear and imminent need to overhaul our Section 1 patterned more after the AF JV. I for one would like to see any permitted flying subject to an annual review with specified remedies to put some teeth back in our contract.
Cheers
George
04-21-2011, 08:42 AM
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Jim,
First, I am certainly not an ALPA apologist, however, don't you think that some of the reason they get the vote they want is because they have a pretty decent understanding of what their line pilots want in relation to what can actually be gained from the company. Believe me, I want 100% increase in pay, I want the work rules back and I would like to have a retirement. I also want to make sure that I am able to work for a profitable airline that will hopefully stay in business for as long as I am in the career. I hope that ALPA has learned from the past mistakes and our next contract will be able to actually realize sizable gains when the company is making record profits and not fall in the same trap the last two decades of signing a contract and then watching the company make truck fulls of money with nothing additional coming to us. Then at contract time, "oh sorry, the economy is in the tank and we can't give anything".
I also don't want to see the same thing happen to us as what happened to the NWA mechanics. They were sold down the river over 2 weeks of severance pay. Their leadership would not send the contract out for a vote.
04-21-2011, 08:52 AM
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...If the MEC is saying what I hope they're saying, they want to use this ruling to go after the definition of "air carrier" such that from now on holding companies are seen as STS and thus preclude anyone from trying this RAH style ploy to do an end around scope.
If that's the case, you'd no longer have to fight each regional one at a time because you could, with a change in definition, automatically wipe RAH, American Eagle and anyone else who is tries this holding company ploy out of DCI for violating our scope.[/B]
And the last thing a DCI wants to lose is guaranteed profit. I believe the IBT knew this when they presented their case and thus made it so very specific about representation. And to me the NMB was toying with their ruling, "yeah, totally STS, in every account, but since you only asked about representation then we'll keep adding that caveat of "when it comes to class or craft." The NMB just put the ball on the T.
If that's the case, you'd no longer have to fight each regional one at a time because you could, with a change in definition, automatically wipe RAH, American Eagle and anyone else who is tries this holding company ploy out of DCI for violating our scope.[/B]
And the last thing a DCI wants to lose is guaranteed profit. I believe the IBT knew this when they presented their case and thus made it so very specific about representation. And to me the NMB was toying with their ruling, "yeah, totally STS, in every account, but since you only asked about representation then we'll keep adding that caveat of "when it comes to class or craft." The NMB just put the ball on the T.
Cheers
George
04-21-2011, 09:59 AM
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The way I see it the executive management types at DAL are okay with subsidizing Frontier via RAH & Co so long as it results in reduced operating costs in the near term. They are beholden only to the board of directors and the shareholders, and their primary concern is showing the best quarterly results possible.
The employees on the other hand have careers staked in the company. The pilots even more so, as we all know, because unlike most other professions our pay scales start over when we change companies. As a result, one group cares deeply about not subsidizing a current and future competitor while the other only cares to the extent that it affects this quarter's results.
The point; management is risking your future. Whether or not you think Frontier/RAH is a viable competitor today, DAL is providing them with risk-free revenue which they will undoubtedly put towards their own future growth.
Apathy on the part of DALPA on this issue disgusts me. Employees not executives have built the Delta brand. Mangement will not end this debacle, the employees must. Shareholders buy today, sell tomorrow - Do we have that luxury with our careers?? Maybe some people only have a few years left and don't want to "rock the boat", but if any single employee group has the ability to influence the future of the company it is the pilot group.
The employees on the other hand have careers staked in the company. The pilots even more so, as we all know, because unlike most other professions our pay scales start over when we change companies. As a result, one group cares deeply about not subsidizing a current and future competitor while the other only cares to the extent that it affects this quarter's results.
The point; management is risking your future. Whether or not you think Frontier/RAH is a viable competitor today, DAL is providing them with risk-free revenue which they will undoubtedly put towards their own future growth.
Apathy on the part of DALPA on this issue disgusts me. Employees not executives have built the Delta brand. Mangement will not end this debacle, the employees must. Shareholders buy today, sell tomorrow - Do we have that luxury with our careers?? Maybe some people only have a few years left and don't want to "rock the boat", but if any single employee group has the ability to influence the future of the company it is the pilot group.
04-21-2011, 10:29 AM
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04-21-2011, 10:40 AM
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Posts: 5,030
The way I see it the executive management types at DAL are okay with subsidizing Frontier via RAH & Co so long as it results in reduced operating costs in the near term. They are beholden only to the board of directors and the shareholders, and their primary concern is showing the best quarterly results possible.
The employees on the other hand have careers staked in the company. The pilots even more so, as we all know, because unlike most other professions our pay scales start over when we change companies. As a result, one group cares deeply about not subsidizing a current and future competitor while the other only cares to the extent that it affects this quarter's results.
The point; management is risking your future. Whether or not you think Frontier/RAH is a viable competitor today, DAL is providing them with risk-free revenue which they will undoubtedly put towards their own future growth.
Apathy on the part of DALPA on this issue disgusts me. Employees not executives have built the Delta brand. Mangement will not end this debacle, the employees must. Shareholders buy today, sell tomorrow - Do we have that luxury with our careers?? Maybe some people only have a few years left and don't want to "rock the boat", but if any single employee group has the ability to influence the future of the company it is the pilot group.
The employees on the other hand have careers staked in the company. The pilots even more so, as we all know, because unlike most other professions our pay scales start over when we change companies. As a result, one group cares deeply about not subsidizing a current and future competitor while the other only cares to the extent that it affects this quarter's results.
The point; management is risking your future. Whether or not you think Frontier/RAH is a viable competitor today, DAL is providing them with risk-free revenue which they will undoubtedly put towards their own future growth.
Apathy on the part of DALPA on this issue disgusts me. Employees not executives have built the Delta brand. Mangement will not end this debacle, the employees must. Shareholders buy today, sell tomorrow - Do we have that luxury with our careers?? Maybe some people only have a few years left and don't want to "rock the boat", but if any single employee group has the ability to influence the future of the company it is the pilot group.
04-21-2011, 10:57 AM
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Position: B744 F/O
Posts: 141
Jim,
First, I am certainly not an ALPA apologist, however, don't you think that some of the reason they get the vote they want is because they have a pretty decent understanding of what their line pilots want in relation to what can actually be gained from the company.
Well, that is the question isn't it?
I also don't want to see the same thing happen to us as what happened to the NWA mechanics. They were sold down the river over 2 weeks of severance pay. Their leadership would not send the contract out for a vote.
First, I am certainly not an ALPA apologist, however, don't you think that some of the reason they get the vote they want is because they have a pretty decent understanding of what their line pilots want in relation to what can actually be gained from the company.
Well, that is the question isn't it?
I also don't want to see the same thing happen to us as what happened to the NWA mechanics. They were sold down the river over 2 weeks of severance pay. Their leadership would not send the contract out for a vote.
Agreed.
Jim
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