Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-12-2011, 04:57 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Two things about DPA. They so far have very little support and are no where near having enough cards to call for a election. The cards they have now are starting to expire so they have to reenlist those individuals. I know at least two people who filled out cards but wont refile them after seeing that DPA did not accomplish any of the tasks they laid out in their timeline.
The other important point is that the next contract will more then likely be the most intensely political airline contract ever negotiated. The successes we achieve or don't achieve will be decide far more at the political level behind the scenes in DC then at the negotiating table. APA has finally realized how important that aspect is which is why they have enlisted the help of ALPA. If you think DPA can be spooled up and ready to go with all the needed contacts, money and political knowledge by this time next year then I have a couple of bridges to sell you.
The other important point is that the next contract will more then likely be the most intensely political airline contract ever negotiated. The successes we achieve or don't achieve will be decide far more at the political level behind the scenes in DC then at the negotiating table. APA has finally realized how important that aspect is which is why they have enlisted the help of ALPA. If you think DPA can be spooled up and ready to go with all the needed contacts, money and political knowledge by this time next year then I have a couple of bridges to sell you.
04-12-2011, 05:37 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,907
Heyas,
ALPA won't do anything about the RAH issue. The legal horsepower comes from national, and national wants another potential 2,500 members from RAH 2-3 years down the road, and won't do anything to disturb that.
We really need our own section 1 counsel like the AirTran guys.
Nu
ALPA won't do anything about the RAH issue. The legal horsepower comes from national, and national wants another potential 2,500 members from RAH 2-3 years down the road, and won't do anything to disturb that.
We really need our own section 1 counsel like the AirTran guys.
Nu
04-12-2011, 05:57 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I defy you to explain how it "can't be any any worse" under DPA. You might hope it wouldn't be worse. There are plenty of logical arguments to suggest it could fall in somewhere between bad, and right down terrible. I'll start:
1) USAPA.
I'd give you more leeway under an IBT scenario. They seem to have a better track record.
1) USAPA.
I'd give you more leeway under an IBT scenario. They seem to have a better track record.
Let's just say a competition for the right to represent us would be beneficial IMHO.
Also maybe it'll end the notion pilots can't be trusted to make a decision on anything other than lec reps youve never met or the latest TA that alpa told you to pass or else face dire consequences we'd never recover from.
Hell I know dealing with pilots is miserable especially if you're dealing with that troublesome 5%, or 20%, or whatever. But we're not stupid. we fly large airliners and do it well. Why engage us on the Internet if we're just a bunch of dimwits that'd jump on a merry go round powered by a motorcycle...
Teaser-gets fast and ends... well watch
04-12-2011, 05:57 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Says who?
This is the crux of the problem. I hope we get a thorough explanation of where this notion comes from. The contract says nothing about certificates and neither does the federal definition of an air carrier.
This certificate thing just seems like a convenient explanation that the ALPA lawyers made up out of thin air in order to justify their reluctance to enforce any part of any mainline scope clause. Can they point to any instances in the past where the government defined "air carrier" by certificate? The govt uses the same criteria as the NMB. Ownership and control. Common or interlocking management, Boards of Directors, operational integration, etc. etc.
They "pierce the corporate veil". They look beyond the legal fiction to the reality of the situation. A "certificate" is nothing more than a piece of paper in some FAA bureaucrat's desk drawer. It has no bearing on how Bedford manages his empire.
Most importantly for our purposes, separate certificates does not prevent RAH from using the money they make from their Delta guaranteed profit flights to set up and subsidize other flights that directly compete with Delta.
If you believe the certificate reasoning then what is the purpose of that paragraph in our contract? Its useless. How could it ever be enforced if all an airline has to do is put their large aircraft on separate certificates?
This is the crux of the problem. I hope we get a thorough explanation of where this notion comes from. The contract says nothing about certificates and neither does the federal definition of an air carrier.
This certificate thing just seems like a convenient explanation that the ALPA lawyers made up out of thin air in order to justify their reluctance to enforce any part of any mainline scope clause. Can they point to any instances in the past where the government defined "air carrier" by certificate? The govt uses the same criteria as the NMB. Ownership and control. Common or interlocking management, Boards of Directors, operational integration, etc. etc.
They "pierce the corporate veil". They look beyond the legal fiction to the reality of the situation. A "certificate" is nothing more than a piece of paper in some FAA bureaucrat's desk drawer. It has no bearing on how Bedford manages his empire.
Most importantly for our purposes, separate certificates does not prevent RAH from using the money they make from their Delta guaranteed profit flights to set up and subsidize other flights that directly compete with Delta.
If you believe the certificate reasoning then what is the purpose of that paragraph in our contract? Its useless. How could it ever be enforced if all an airline has to do is put their large aircraft on separate certificates?
Last edited by Check Essential; 04-12-2011 at 06:16 PM.
04-12-2011, 06:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
I've been furloughed. Got that square filled a long time ago. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish that on anyone... even you. But nobody... and I mean nobody... ever makes up for lost years in a furlough. Here's something else that nobody ever makes up for... 50% wages for half a decade and loss of a significant portion of your retirement. You obviously don't have the background or perspective to even understand where a good percentage of this pilot group is coming from. You don't even appear to understand the history of compensation in this profession. A 50% pay increase doesn't even get us back to the buying power we had in the year 2000. If you want to talk about the 1960's... well now you're talking about upping the ante a whole bunch.
Good luck with your "job security" objective. I sincerely hope it works out for you. Just try not to screw this profession up for the rest of us while you're here.
Good luck with your "job security" objective. I sincerely hope it works out for you. Just try not to screw this profession up for the rest of us while you're here.
Like I said, I think I'm fairly compensated for today's market conditions. I checked APC and for 4th year 737 FO pay Delta pays more than every one except SWA. Delta made $2 Billion in profit last year. I think I recall someone posted a C2K restoration would cost about that. Do you really think that is even realistic? What's that you say? Not your problem? Let the bean counters figure out how to pay for it? I'll tell you how they would pay for it, they'll reduce the amount of bodies they have to pay those higher rates, that's how.
04-12-2011, 06:30 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
I think you are undervaluing your professional skills.
Your expectations have been lowered.
You've got to resist the forces who relentlessly seek to convince you that an airline pilot's profession and his career earnings are worth less in this day and age just because oil is a volatile commodity and airline managers have questionable competence.
Your expectations have been lowered.
You've got to resist the forces who relentlessly seek to convince you that an airline pilot's profession and his career earnings are worth less in this day and age just because oil is a volatile commodity and airline managers have questionable competence.
04-12-2011, 06:40 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
04-12-2011, 06:56 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
04-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I think some added vim and vigor would do this union some good, but I am tiring of the Red/Blue debate. I remember the saber rattling prior to our '98 strike. Three weeks later we walked in with virtually the same contract we struck over. My thoughts at the time: "That was a waste. Why did we bother?" The cobra did not impress me as being very smart.
Yeah...why did we bother.
Carl
04-12-2011, 07:05 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
I think you are undervaluing your professional skills.
Your expectations have been lowered.
You've got to resist the forces who relentlessly seek to convince you that an airline pilot's profession and his career earnings are worth less in this day and age just because oil is a volatile commodity and airline managers have questionable competence.
Your expectations have been lowered.
You've got to resist the forces who relentlessly seek to convince you that an airline pilot's profession and his career earnings are worth less in this day and age just because oil is a volatile commodity and airline managers have questionable competence.
As to our management's competence or lack there of, very few managers could effectively navigate today's pseudo regulated market where government has an ulterior motive and plays favorites. Ex, LGA slot swap.
I'm the second highest paid 4th year 737 pilot in the US. How is that not fairly compensated? Could it be more, sure. But it ain't gonna be 50% more, at least here in Literalville.
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