Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-07-2011, 07:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Bar,
Thanks for your detailed reply, but it's my opinion that you're still looking in the rear view mirror. I can also tell where we were, and in a previous post I've pointed out mistakes we've made. Today is February 7, 2011. I can't look backwards and wish those mistakes away. You talk of unity as if it's a panacea. It's my view it is not. Right now economics is playing a huge role. You didn't address how we look forward and the real consequences of the path I believe that you want to go down.
On the economic front, you continue arguing that ALPA should do that which it has already done. ALPA E&FA has a copy of every ASA being done by DCI. As you mention later, CMR is the DCI most under threat. Don't you think that they've done just a little bit of work to find out if they're cost competitive or not? The economic analysis has been done. The answer isn't pretty for your point of view.
As a union we have to judge our success based on the real world in which we live. The economic cycle is vicious to those that don't adapt. You point to CMR. What about those at Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, Braniff?
ALPA members at Comair are having their careers destroyed because of their economics. We can debate the source of their economics as nauseum, but it doesn't matter. Today they cost a lot more than their peers. Because of that they're shrinking.
We operate in the real world, where decisions have consequences. The failures of the past are here and now. It's my view that unity doesn't trump economics in our current environment. Maybe we can shape the environment to change more in our favor...
Oh, you might want to revisit your assertion above regarding ASM's. The decrease is actually quite large on a relative ASM basis, and the block hour reduction for DCI is huge.
Thanks for acknowledging that.
One of the base assumptions that is contained in the statement above is that absent outsourcing the flying would have continued to be done by mainline. I think you're seeing in the reduction of the number of small jets and cities served that point of view isn't correct. I agree that when we look back at what happened we should have done a better job. How about looking forward and telling me how you'd do it between today and 2013-5? How does unity solve the systemwide problem facing the Delta brand?
You state that you're not making that promise, but it still reads to me that you are. Behnke was right, but we were unable to develop a structure that can address it. If we had been able to start this union along the path of the AMA or ABA, where ALPA controlled the supply of pilots, then we might have had a chance. I don't think you'd have like the consequences to your personal career, though.
As I've said before, already done. You won't like the answers.
You'll have to take that question up with the guys that were at the table.
Let me transpose it for you, though. Since Delta management has stated it wants to get out of the regional ownership business, what good would it have done to put Delta seniority numbers with Compass pilots? Remember Delta sold Compass and Mesaba. Mesaba was operating 70-76 seat jets as a wholly owned, but they weren't Delta pilots. Instead, they're now merging into PCL. CPZ went to TSH. From your point of view, those Delta (CPZ) pilots would no longer work for Delta, and they wouldn't have triggered the fragmentation provision of our contract. They didn't merge. What would have happened?
Thanks for your detailed reply, but it's my opinion that you're still looking in the rear view mirror. I can also tell where we were, and in a previous post I've pointed out mistakes we've made. Today is February 7, 2011. I can't look backwards and wish those mistakes away. You talk of unity as if it's a panacea. It's my view it is not. Right now economics is playing a huge role. You didn't address how we look forward and the real consequences of the path I believe that you want to go down.
ALPA members at Comair are having their careers destroyed while non union carriers are hiring and upgrading to perform "our" (meaning Delta's) work. By Available Seat Mile measures there is scant difference in the available seat miles performed by our regional carriers. As a union, we can't judge our success based purely on external economics which we have no control over. I'm just talking about what we control and that is where my answer will be aimed.
ALPA members at Comair are having their careers destroyed because of their economics. We can debate the source of their economics as nauseum, but it doesn't matter. Today they cost a lot more than their peers. Because of that they're shrinking.
We operate in the real world, where decisions have consequences. The failures of the past are here and now. It's my view that unity doesn't trump economics in our current environment. Maybe we can shape the environment to change more in our favor...
Oh, you might want to revisit your assertion above regarding ASM's. The decrease is actually quite large on a relative ASM basis, and the block hour reduction for DCI is huge.
But there are other tangible benefits to ALPA members. For one, guys like ACL are down a decade on where their longevity should be, Both Delta and Northwest pilots were furloughed while their airlines were hiring pilots with very low experience to fill the need to provide outsourced flying. Any time one part of the airline is furloughing pilots, while another division is hiring, that history indicates failure of unity.
So no, I'm not promising a chicken in every pot in today's economic environment. What I'm stating is that by taking Behnke seriously when he stated "when one pilot has a problem, we all have a problem" we can work to create a career that is more stable, more equitable, more fair, and more financially rewarding.
How many billions has management lost on outsourcing schemes? If we just relieved them of that burden it would be something. To adequately answer your question, I would ask ALPA to start eh following economic analysis:
- Get a copy of all the agreements for outsourced flying
- Learn how much is spent in duplicate administrative and management costs
- Learn where the real efficiencies are
- Figure out where we would need to be on a competing proposal
- Learn where Delta needs to be to want to return to its core business
Let me transpose it for you, though. Since Delta management has stated it wants to get out of the regional ownership business, what good would it have done to put Delta seniority numbers with Compass pilots? Remember Delta sold Compass and Mesaba. Mesaba was operating 70-76 seat jets as a wholly owned, but they weren't Delta pilots. Instead, they're now merging into PCL. CPZ went to TSH. From your point of view, those Delta (CPZ) pilots would no longer work for Delta, and they wouldn't have triggered the fragmentation provision of our contract. They didn't merge. What would have happened?
02-07-2011, 07:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,858
Heyas,
The Spanky and the gang need to pick a new "Daily Clubhouse" soundbite. The "reduction of RJs" as we see small narrowbody jets outsource hundreds of CURRENT mainline jobs is getting kind of hollow.
Nu
The Spanky and the gang need to pick a new "Daily Clubhouse" soundbite. The "reduction of RJs" as we see small narrowbody jets outsource hundreds of CURRENT mainline jobs is getting kind of hollow.
Nu
02-07-2011, 07:45 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,099
Dayton: Airport needs to have more options | StarTribune.com
Dayton: Airport needs to have more options
At MAC presentation, the governor said passengers would benefit from new competition. Delta welcomed change but said it offers plenty.
Sounding a populist tone in support of passengers, Gov. Mark Dayton on Thursday called for greater competition among airlines at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport to curb ticket costs and provide better services.
"The airport belongs to the people," Dayton told more than 400 business people and government officials at a presentation in Bloomington by the Metropolitan Airports Commission.
Referring to Delta Air Lines' overwhelming presence at the airport, Dayton said there is a "need to bring in other options and alternatives" and establish "more of a competitive balance" in flights and pricing.
"It's important to me that the commission view its customers as first and foremost the people," he said.
Dayton, a DFLer, made his remarks as he prepares to put his stamp on the commission with appointments replacing some who served under his GOP predecessor, Tim Pawlenty.
In an interview after the gathering, Dayton didn't offer specific strategies for fostering competition. But he noted that Delta, headquartered in Atlanta, took over Twin Cities-based Northwest Airlines. He said he looks forward to talking with Delta CEO Richard Anderson and obtaining assurances that it will maintain or increase employment at Minneapolis-St. Paul.
"It certainly is a concern that we no longer have the company headquartered here, that we're one of a larger number of hubs," Dayton said. "So we need the offsetting advantage of having greater competition."
more in link....
Dayton: Airport needs to have more options
At MAC presentation, the governor said passengers would benefit from new competition. Delta welcomed change but said it offers plenty.
Sounding a populist tone in support of passengers, Gov. Mark Dayton on Thursday called for greater competition among airlines at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport to curb ticket costs and provide better services.
"The airport belongs to the people," Dayton told more than 400 business people and government officials at a presentation in Bloomington by the Metropolitan Airports Commission.
Referring to Delta Air Lines' overwhelming presence at the airport, Dayton said there is a "need to bring in other options and alternatives" and establish "more of a competitive balance" in flights and pricing.
"It's important to me that the commission view its customers as first and foremost the people," he said.
Dayton, a DFLer, made his remarks as he prepares to put his stamp on the commission with appointments replacing some who served under his GOP predecessor, Tim Pawlenty.
In an interview after the gathering, Dayton didn't offer specific strategies for fostering competition. But he noted that Delta, headquartered in Atlanta, took over Twin Cities-based Northwest Airlines. He said he looks forward to talking with Delta CEO Richard Anderson and obtaining assurances that it will maintain or increase employment at Minneapolis-St. Paul.
"It certainly is a concern that we no longer have the company headquartered here, that we're one of a larger number of hubs," Dayton said. "So we need the offsetting advantage of having greater competition."
more in link....
How many carriers could a mayor want? If anything, the mayor should be more worried about LCC consolidation. That will have more of an effect on ticket prices than DAL's hub status.
Additional, it amazes me that these cities want more carriers and destinations yet they don't like being a "hub" for a major carrier. Cincinnati's love affair with DAL is over and they're currently trying to bring in other carriers in the hopes of creating more destinations. They have a "blue ribbon panel" trying to do this as I type. I have to tell you, that isn't going to happen. If anything, any new carrier will fly to the same high volume airports that DAL currently operates mainline out of there. The city in the long term would lose available city pairs.
There is a reason why carriers like Southwest, Sun Country, and Frontier don't bring service to smaller markets. They need the high frequency/volume markets. Anyone wishing to have their airport go down to a non hub status is just crazy. If I were Delta, my option to the mayor would be, "Ok, you can make your city more attractive to us by helping us keeping costs and taxes low, helping us increase markets served out of MSP, thereby helping you increase jobs and bringing more money and options to your city. Or you can make it unattractive for our business and we'll get rid of our hub, therefore losing jobs, losing every international destination except for Cancun, and 95% of your flights will go to ORD, MDW, ATL, BWI, DEN, and DTW to make connections." What is your choice?
02-07-2011, 08:11 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Let me transpose it for you, though. Since Delta management has stated it wants to get out of the regional ownership business, what good would it have done to put Delta seniority numbers with Compass pilots? Remember Delta sold Compass and Mesaba. Mesaba was operating 70-76 seat jets as a wholly owned, but they weren't Delta pilots. Instead, they're now merging into PCL. CPZ went to TSH. From your point of view, those Delta (CPZ) pilots would no longer work for Delta, and they wouldn't have triggered the fragmentation provision of our contract. They didn't merge. What would have happened?
On the economic front, you continue arguing that ALPA should do that which it has already done. ALPA E&FA has a copy of every ASA being done by DCI. As you mention later, CMR is the DCI most under threat. Don't you think that they've done just a little bit of work to find out if they're cost competitive or not? The economic analysis has been done. The answer isn't pretty for your point of view.
It is on good authority we are told no such evaluation has been performed (at least not here at Delta) since preparations for bankruptcy bargaining. If you are citing a study done for Comair, please clarify and I'll go bark up that tree. However, I kind of doubt, given the conflicting obligations between ASA and Comair that ALPA would get into anything that smacked of rationing that work. Such a study would need to be done at Delta, since this is our Section 1 which we're entering into Section 6 with.
Not to be rude (and with all respect and deference) I believe your reference to a study is misinformation. Even if it were accomplished (which I'm certain it has not) then I'd need to know more to ensure it was objective and not contaminated by politics.
It is common sense that a union that represents 100% of labor has greater power than one which represents 53%. Further, it is common sense that to survive a union must protect its' own membership. If you support your union, unity is a moral imperative which does not require economic justification, it is a basic truth.
If it is a question of pure economics and measured by current instant circumstance, we should probably decertify (not that I'm advocating that) and sign on with AOPA's Aeromedical and Legal plans for $99 a year. They've got a better magazine to boot.
Bar ... enjoying the conversation and appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-07-2011 at 08:29 AM.
02-07-2011, 08:28 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Behnke was right, but we were unable to develop a structure that can address it. If we had been able to start this union along the path of the AMA or ABA, where ALPA controlled the supply of pilots, then we might have had a chance. I don't think you'd have like the consequences to your personal career, though.
Law of averages says I'd have been OK. Delta hired something like 700 pilots between 2001 and 2007. By my rough estimate that would have been 6,000 if Comair and ASA had gotten their PID request and our union's Constitution has not been amended to allow their exclusion from merger and fragmentation policy. The odds of winning go up if there are more golden tickets.*
Of course, Leo and Fred probably would have bought something that made more sense than CRJ100/200's. We had a bunch of 737's on order you know.
I agree with most of your points on the economics.
02-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
It is on good authority we are told no such evaluation has been performed (at least not here at Delta) since preparations for bankruptcy bargaining. If you are citing a study done for Comair, please clarify and I'll go bark up that tree. However, I kind of doubt, given the conflicting obligations between ASA and Comair that ALPA would get into anything that smacked of rationing that work. Such a study would need to be done at Delta, since this is our Section 1 which we're entering into Section 6 with.
Not to be rude (and with all respect and deference) I believe your reference to a study is misinformation. Even if it were accomplished (which I'm certain it has not) then I'd need to know more to ensure it was objective and not contaminated by politics.You just summed up representational Nihilism. (link worth reading BTW if you look at where ALPA is headed under this philosophy)
As to the rest, believe what you will. It's clear that nothing short of your actual participation in a study or access to the details of the ASA's will satisfy your curiosity nor change your point of view. With that said, it has been done, both by management and ALPA. You better keep barking.
02-07-2011, 09:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
I'm looking forward to the pm with the identity of your "good authority."
As to the rest, believe what you will. It's clear that nothing short of your actual participation in a study or access to the details of the ASA's will satisfy your curiosity nor change your point of view. With that said, it has been done, both by management and ALPA. You better keep barking.
As to the rest, believe what you will. It's clear that nothing short of your actual participation in a study or access to the details of the ASA's will satisfy your curiosity nor change your point of view. With that said, it has been done, both by management and ALPA. You better keep barking.
You normally are pretty accurate, but I can't go down your path on this one.
The FACT is that the outsourced products (RJ's) flown by fellow ALPA pilots in the DAL network have suffered MUCH more and been relatively stagnant or shrunk while NON-ALPA outsourced flying has grown.
The analysis I would like to see is much like what Bar states...How much money has DAL inc. WASTED on duplicate management/training/scheduling and other functions..........and GUARANTEED PROFITS to OTHER companies. The number might not be a amazing as some would want to believe, but it'd still be nice to have the facts...rather than "trust me, you wouldn't like it."
You are correct that the furoulghs are happening "beneath" us (for NOW anyway). That is not the point.
When the furloughs were happening here there was not a system in place to keep ALPA Delta Pilots flying Delta Passengers in a seniority honoring system.
Also, we have so much faith in the ability of ALPA to negotiate "multi-layered" and "effective" furlough mitigation strategies. Along with the TLV staffing formulas, other work rules, etc.; it would stand to reason that furloughs would have been much less severe and MORE pilots would be protected and defended with a better PWA (mainline vs. a whipsawed RJ feeders' CBA).
I disagree with the notion some have stated that "Unity solves all problems." Not true, but Unity DOES mitigate many problems and serve to keep the focus of everyone on the same goal, rather than multiple groups striving for disparate goals.
We supposedly belong to a pilot union, not a pilot dis-union.
OFF TOPIC: (Besides the fact that single-list flying from top to bottom is safer from an experience standpoint. No more 5 yr. CA's...More like every CA is 9-15 yrs and FOs spend 10-15 years being an "apprentice", learning from the more experienced pilots, therefore preparing BETTER captains for the next generation to learn from.)
02-07-2011, 09:29 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Of course unity does not solve pay issues, and the like, but the fact is a unified front solves the issue you discuss.
The real savings from DCI is DAL's ability to get debt off of its balance sheet. It makes operating jets off the certificate cheaper. We need to think outside the box on this one.
The real savings from DCI is DAL's ability to get debt off of its balance sheet. It makes operating jets off the certificate cheaper. We need to think outside the box on this one.
02-07-2011, 09:42 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Of course unity does not solve pay issues, and the like, but the fact is a unified front solves the issue you discuss.
The real savings from DCI is DAL's ability to get debt off of its balance sheet. It makes operating jets off the certificate cheaper. We need to think outside the box on this one.
The real savings from DCI is DAL's ability to get debt off of its balance sheet. It makes operating jets off the certificate cheaper. We need to think outside the box on this one.
Here's my take on "unity solves all problems". These guys are "unified!" Pay particular attention to the narration at the end of the clip.
YouTube - Lemming Migration Along the Norwegian Coast.
02-07-2011, 09:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
OFF TOPIC: (Besides the fact that single-list flying from top to bottom is safer from an experience standpoint. No more 5 yr. CA's...More like every CA is 9-15 yrs and FOs spend 10-15 years being an "apprentice", learning from the more experienced pilots, therefore preparing BETTER captains for the next generation to learn from.)
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