Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-01-2011, 07:31 PM
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Scambo, assume you're going in to buy a car next year. Would you REALLY telegraph 21 months before negotiations that you HAVE to have a RED one?
"No matter what, I'm gonna buy a RED car! Now, Mr. Salesman, let's talk about how much I'm gonna pay for it.... but it's gotta be RED!?"
"No matter what, I'm gonna buy a RED car! Now, Mr. Salesman, let's talk about how much I'm gonna pay for it.... but it's gotta be RED!?"
Carl
02-01-2011, 07:36 PM
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Carl
02-01-2011, 07:37 PM
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I hope you're right. It seems like scope is always a one-way street. Once something is gone, or allowed, it never comes back.
Our challenge is to walk, chew gum, and sidestep the steaming pile on the sidewalk. I'm optimistic we can do that, but to avoid the pile we have to see it coming in time to react.
I don't know how it will happen yet, but I am sure that RAH will attempt to exploit some sort of scope loophole in the future. The same could be said for Alaska, any present/future JV, etc. Again, the challenge is to see the threat before it's too late. I doubt the guys ever saw the RJ explosion coming when the first ones showed up. Scope erosion is an insidious problem that can occur on the bottom or TOP end.
Pardon the paranoia this evening. I've got a half-empty rum and coke in front of me
Our challenge is to walk, chew gum, and sidestep the steaming pile on the sidewalk. I'm optimistic we can do that, but to avoid the pile we have to see it coming in time to react.
I don't know how it will happen yet, but I am sure that RAH will attempt to exploit some sort of scope loophole in the future. The same could be said for Alaska, any present/future JV, etc. Again, the challenge is to see the threat before it's too late. I doubt the guys ever saw the RJ explosion coming when the first ones showed up. Scope erosion is an insidious problem that can occur on the bottom or TOP end.
Pardon the paranoia this evening. I've got a half-empty rum and coke in front of me
02-01-2011, 07:44 PM
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It might have been unintentional, but you just took me back to the ALPA magazine cover that had the Midwest MEC Chair on the cover...all smiles as they were closing the doors.
Also, I dont really need a lesson in negotiation 101. Saying things like "playing into managements hands" is absurd. Flight Ops management IS pilots, they think like pilots, they know and are friends with pilots, they discuss all sorts of things with thier former squadron-mates. It isn't like anything here is some big secret.
Also, I dont really need a lesson in negotiation 101. Saying things like "playing into managements hands" is absurd. Flight Ops management IS pilots, they think like pilots, they know and are friends with pilots, they discuss all sorts of things with thier former squadron-mates. It isn't like anything here is some big secret.
By the way, the "right time" will be after the TA is signed. At which time they'll say: "Look guys - we did all we could regarding Scope. This is the best we can do. If you vote this down, we'll have to dissolve the negotiating committee and start over from scratch. Is that what you want? Now please vote yes and we'll all live to fight another day."
Carl
02-01-2011, 07:56 PM
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I went to the Council 44 meeting today and heard TO speak. I will say that I left convinced that he is aware of the scope threats to our profession. It was emphasized that a large threat (and he's right) are the gov't subsidized, soon-to-be MEGA middle-eastern carriers.
He did not infer or even approach re-capturing RJ scope. The presentation was more of a "let's look at the biggest threat going forward" [quotes mine] vs. spinning our wheels working for something we already have: a limit on large RJ's that is almost met, albeit frustrating and far too generous.
I'm rambling, but my point is I don't want to be so focused on the left hand (RJ's) that the right hand (JV's, Codeshares, Cabotage, younameit) slaps us without even seeing it coming. Unless we relax RJ scope, at least it is where it is for now. If we can tighten it up, or recapture, so much the better.
Carl
02-01-2011, 08:00 PM
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Start-up Airline Business Plan 101
DO NOT try and buy new A320s or B737s and launch a new ultra low cost carrier that is heavily reliant on flying routes where other airlines did not have direct flights and flying to secondary airports rather than heavily-trafficked ones and doing cheesy stuff like selling advertising space on the interior and exterior of its aircraft as well as selling merchandise on board.
DO buy a small fleet of cheep regional jets. Fly for a mainline carrier and get a contract where you're guaranteed a profit for each departure and you don't pay for fuel. To show good faith accept whatever base they request and call that a hub and make the pilots live there (like NYC), pay everyone really low wages and skimp on training and maintenance. One day take your small fortune and buy bigger jets and compete with the mainline carrier completely funding your new airline with a long term contract signed with the mainline carrier who probably won't even notice what you're doing. Their pilots may complain but nobody listens to them anyways. Heck, make sure your pilots join their union! It'll neuter them both.
It's simple, it's cheap, everyone who is anyone is doing it.
That ends today's lesson in Start-Up Airline Business Plan 101.
DO NOT try and buy new A320s or B737s and launch a new ultra low cost carrier that is heavily reliant on flying routes where other airlines did not have direct flights and flying to secondary airports rather than heavily-trafficked ones and doing cheesy stuff like selling advertising space on the interior and exterior of its aircraft as well as selling merchandise on board.
DO buy a small fleet of cheep regional jets. Fly for a mainline carrier and get a contract where you're guaranteed a profit for each departure and you don't pay for fuel. To show good faith accept whatever base they request and call that a hub and make the pilots live there (like NYC), pay everyone really low wages and skimp on training and maintenance. One day take your small fortune and buy bigger jets and compete with the mainline carrier completely funding your new airline with a long term contract signed with the mainline carrier who probably won't even notice what you're doing. Their pilots may complain but nobody listens to them anyways. Heck, make sure your pilots join their union! It'll neuter them both.
It's simple, it's cheap, everyone who is anyone is doing it.
That ends today's lesson in Start-Up Airline Business Plan 101.
Tip of the hat brother! Spot on.
Carl
02-01-2011, 08:07 PM
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Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,174
Here's the disconnect with TO and his LEC partners. Scope is the only threat they/we can control. Cabotage, foreign ownership, gov't subsidized foreign carrier, open skies, etc is ALL controlled by governments. I know ALPA is in love with the concept of having a seat at the table, but that seat buys nothing. Again Scope is all we control.
This is so maddening. Didn't even infer recapturing Scope. Instead he wants to focus on bigger threats over which we have absolutely no control.
That would be a logical strategy if we could actually control any of these other threats. We do not. We should do all we can regarding these other threats, but let's actually focus on a threat we can actually control.
ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!
No...we shouldn't let the allure of thinking we can actually control any of these other threats with our "seat at the table" cloud the issue of controlling what we can actually control. Which is...Scope.
Carl
This is so maddening. Didn't even infer recapturing Scope. Instead he wants to focus on bigger threats over which we have absolutely no control.
That would be a logical strategy if we could actually control any of these other threats. We do not. We should do all we can regarding these other threats, but let's actually focus on a threat we can actually control.
ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!
No...we shouldn't let the allure of thinking we can actually control any of these other threats with our "seat at the table" cloud the issue of controlling what we can actually control. Which is...Scope.
Carl
Unfortunately there are many guys out there who only look to the payrates.
My hope is that there will be a lot of noise from everyone regarding scope, Scope, and more SCOPE when the polling begins for the new contract. We all want payrates and QOL, but we need to shore up the foundations of the contract as well. We need to be loud and unified in what we want. It needs to be so obvious that this is the will of the pilot group that it cannot be dismissed as the the complaining of the "vocal minority."
02-01-2011, 08:34 PM
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I love your fire man. It's great to see a super-premium WB guy getting so intense about scope. If we could just get the other 12,000 guys between you and me to get it, then the scope recapture/tightening might actually occur.
Unfortunately there are many guys out there who only look to the payrates.
My hope is that there will be a lot of noise from everyone regarding scope, Scope, and more SCOPE when the polling begins for the new contract. We all want payrates and QOL, but we need to shore up the foundations of the contract as well. We need to be loud and unified in what we want. It needs to be so obvious that this is the will of the pilot group that it cannot be dismissed as the the complaining of the "vocal minority."
Unfortunately there are many guys out there who only look to the payrates.
My hope is that there will be a lot of noise from everyone regarding scope, Scope, and more SCOPE when the polling begins for the new contract. We all want payrates and QOL, but we need to shore up the foundations of the contract as well. We need to be loud and unified in what we want. It needs to be so obvious that this is the will of the pilot group that it cannot be dismissed as the the complaining of the "vocal minority."
Carl
02-02-2011, 12:55 AM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
I know you guys love arguing about Scope and I'm reading it all and trying to drink the right koolaid--"SCOPE!"-- but I have some questions on stuff that's changes in the last 6 years or so since last I compu-tapped Delta, if anyone can help
Having some trouble figuring out all the websites as I gear up to come back from the mil. Can you guys back me up and tell me if these are the right/best places to go for info & doing our business?
Here, and this one single thread on Delta: main online source for up-to-date rumors and what's-up with Delta from the pilot's perspective. Really? Just this one thread in the world?
DeltaNet-- I see this as the main delta page, I go to Flight Operations, and most things I'm looking for are on Scheduling. I'm finding the AE posts/Awards, and the bid packages and awards there.
I-Crew-- I get there from DeltaNet Scheduling page. From here I can see a bunch of stuff, including a page for E-Crew for swap board.
E-Crew--No idea what this is, don't know if I need to use it. It seems like I crew is a replacement?
VPN--I used to use some VPN or other, special software I had to download to access all the delta stuff including DBMS, back in 2001-2004 when I cared and last accessed all this stuff... I THINK it's all gone now?
DBMS--Used to be the main site/database of all my info I seem to recall... not sure where that lives now or how to access it, I seem to recall it had health and benefits there?
ALPA--- *** damn it's hard to navigate that site! I only care about the Delta Alpa site, but it seems I have to do this to get there:
1. log into alpa.org . From there I go to
2. crewroom.alpa.org ... WHAT is this place? It looks like it has stuff but it's mostly outdated?
3. Finally by clicking on a link at top, I seem to reach dal.alpa.org, which looks to me to be "the Delta Alpa site". From the scheduling page I found "PBS Gouge" and "When Scheduling Calls", but all the AE posts and category lists there are from 2008, not up to date, and I can get the latest stuff from DeltaNet right? What does the Dal.Alpa site give me, pay charts?
Bidding software... I THINK it's PBS, at least I hope so because I watched like hours of video on how the system works and read some presentations that were pretty good.
.. but what is PCS? Pilot Change System, but what is it?
and, after reading Allllll that info, and the PBS guide, AND googling it, I can't for the life of me fine anything that explains what a "green slip" or "yellow slip" or "white slip" is... WHERE is the book that explains our scheduling system?
Thanks!
Having some trouble figuring out all the websites as I gear up to come back from the mil. Can you guys back me up and tell me if these are the right/best places to go for info & doing our business?
Here, and this one single thread on Delta: main online source for up-to-date rumors and what's-up with Delta from the pilot's perspective. Really? Just this one thread in the world?
DeltaNet-- I see this as the main delta page, I go to Flight Operations, and most things I'm looking for are on Scheduling. I'm finding the AE posts/Awards, and the bid packages and awards there.
I-Crew-- I get there from DeltaNet Scheduling page. From here I can see a bunch of stuff, including a page for E-Crew for swap board.
E-Crew--No idea what this is, don't know if I need to use it. It seems like I crew is a replacement?
VPN--I used to use some VPN or other, special software I had to download to access all the delta stuff including DBMS, back in 2001-2004 when I cared and last accessed all this stuff... I THINK it's all gone now?
DBMS--Used to be the main site/database of all my info I seem to recall... not sure where that lives now or how to access it, I seem to recall it had health and benefits there?
ALPA--- *** damn it's hard to navigate that site! I only care about the Delta Alpa site, but it seems I have to do this to get there:
1. log into alpa.org . From there I go to
2. crewroom.alpa.org ... WHAT is this place? It looks like it has stuff but it's mostly outdated?
3. Finally by clicking on a link at top, I seem to reach dal.alpa.org, which looks to me to be "the Delta Alpa site". From the scheduling page I found "PBS Gouge" and "When Scheduling Calls", but all the AE posts and category lists there are from 2008, not up to date, and I can get the latest stuff from DeltaNet right? What does the Dal.Alpa site give me, pay charts?
Bidding software... I THINK it's PBS, at least I hope so because I watched like hours of video on how the system works and read some presentations that were pretty good.
.. but what is PCS? Pilot Change System, but what is it?
and, after reading Allllll that info, and the PBS guide, AND googling it, I can't for the life of me fine anything that explains what a "green slip" or "yellow slip" or "white slip" is... WHERE is the book that explains our scheduling system?
Thanks!
Last edited by Roadkill; 02-02-2011 at 01:38 AM.
02-02-2011, 02:40 AM
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Position: Delta M88 A ATL
Posts: 383
I think ALPA should run an update article. In that article, should be an update of "where we are today", with pictures of the aircraft they are currently flying, placed next to pictures from the previous ALPA article.
In all fairness to ALPA, "What were they thinking"?
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