Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-17-2011, 09:31 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
It is not the the snow that is the issue, it is the ability of the airport to 1) Clear it and 2) provide deice pads for DAL. We have four, therefore we cannot get our jets out in a timely manner. About a half a decade ago they found glycol in the Surround Cities water supply. This prompted use of the pads that we now utilize. Because of this, and the decision to do these deice pads sans redoing the airport drainage system, we not have a total mess when it comes to snow removal.
Add to this the DOT-3 rule and it is the making of a total disaster. Yes, the crew staffing arm should be able to effectively deal with the compounding issue and yes, that needs to be addressed, but the root cause of the problem is the inability to get jets clear of adhering precip in a timely manner. Deal with this, and many of the other issues do not compound on themselves creating the situation we have had twice in the last month.
So, find more areas in which to deice our jets that have the correct drainage system. This will allow us to move more metal. Three of the five runways remained open and plowed through this entire event. Taxiways not so much, but airplanes could take off if they could get clean.
Add to this the DOT-3 rule and it is the making of a total disaster. Yes, the crew staffing arm should be able to effectively deal with the compounding issue and yes, that needs to be addressed, but the root cause of the problem is the inability to get jets clear of adhering precip in a timely manner. Deal with this, and many of the other issues do not compound on themselves creating the situation we have had twice in the last month.
So, find more areas in which to deice our jets that have the correct drainage system. This will allow us to move more metal. Three of the five runways remained open and plowed through this entire event. Taxiways not so much, but airplanes could take off if they could get clean.
With all due respect.
Virtually every time a snowstorm comes to ATL Delta has a meltdown. This happens year in and year out. It NEVER gets better! Why is it so difficult to built de-ice pads in ATL? Numerous other cities/airports have them! The de-ice pads could have their own drainage system for re-cycling the glycol. That's pretty standard elsewhere too.
If Delta wanted to get serious about fixing this (instead of the usual excuses) I'm certain they could.
BTW, have you been through CVG lately? Delta's operation there has been reduced substantially, but they still have a fleet of de-ice trucks.
From what I understand OCC is not under flight operations and neither is crew accommodations (which is contracted out to a third party). That's a poor organizational structure. I sincerely hope a bunch of heads roll over these recent debacles.
I'm reminded of that phrase on military Officer Effectiveness Reports: "Sets low goals and fails to achieve them". IMHO, a pretty accurate statement on Delta.
01-17-2011, 09:48 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
First, has Delta ever run as many flights out of ATL as it does now?
And WP, look at a 10-9, there is not a piece of pavement that could be converted to handle the traffic load during a snow storm nor a place really to build new pavement.This place is packed in and any effort to make adequate deice traffic flow would not be worth the cost of just shutting down like they did.
The cost I seriously doubt would outweigh the benefits. And if you build a new piece of pavement is that worth it over building a taxiway V like system on the southside? Especially if they ramp up MEM and CVG better in these situations. I think ACL is right and to call it a meltdown is a little harsh, it was a shutdown. That should've been the key is up gauging MEM and CVG during a major ATL IROP.
When I was based in EWR at XJT we had lots of 4 hour taxi's to deice while everyone else deiced at the gate and launched. It was very similar to ATL but the CAL operation despite its massive size in EWR was still far smaller than ATLs.
And to those who'd say "well up north we blah blah" during snow is misplaced as well. I've lived in CLE when that place shut down for snow. I have friends from NJ/PA and BOS who refused to drive this past week around here as it was solid sheets of ice, not snow, ice.
Also, I still love someones FB post last week: "watching cars crash on the DOT webfeed as northerners try to show us how to drive on ice."
And WP, look at a 10-9, there is not a piece of pavement that could be converted to handle the traffic load during a snow storm nor a place really to build new pavement.This place is packed in and any effort to make adequate deice traffic flow would not be worth the cost of just shutting down like they did.
The cost I seriously doubt would outweigh the benefits. And if you build a new piece of pavement is that worth it over building a taxiway V like system on the southside? Especially if they ramp up MEM and CVG better in these situations. I think ACL is right and to call it a meltdown is a little harsh, it was a shutdown. That should've been the key is up gauging MEM and CVG during a major ATL IROP.
When I was based in EWR at XJT we had lots of 4 hour taxi's to deice while everyone else deiced at the gate and launched. It was very similar to ATL but the CAL operation despite its massive size in EWR was still far smaller than ATLs.
And to those who'd say "well up north we blah blah" during snow is misplaced as well. I've lived in CLE when that place shut down for snow. I have friends from NJ/PA and BOS who refused to drive this past week around here as it was solid sheets of ice, not snow, ice.
Also, I still love someones FB post last week: "watching cars crash on the DOT webfeed as northerners try to show us how to drive on ice."
01-17-2011, 09:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Right Seat over the CONUS
Posts: 326
W-2's
I know the W-2's are available this week on DeltaNet but where are they on there?
"The paper W-2 forms will be mailed by Jan. 31. Employees will be able to access the electronic version of the W-2s on DeltaNet the week of Jan. 17." (Found in the search of DeltaNet)
Answered:
A little bit more searching found "GetMyTaxForm" on the Benefits section
"The paper W-2 forms will be mailed by Jan. 31. Employees will be able to access the electronic version of the W-2s on DeltaNet the week of Jan. 17." (Found in the search of DeltaNet)
Answered:
A little bit more searching found "GetMyTaxForm" on the Benefits section
01-17-2011, 10:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 432
Nothing there yet though.
01-17-2011, 10:01 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
ACL,
With all due respect.
Virtually every time a snowstorm comes to ATL Delta has a meltdown. This happens year in and year out. It NEVER gets better! Why is it so difficult to built de-ice pads in ATL? Numerous other cities/airports have them! The de-ice pads could have their own drainage system for re-cycling the glycol. That's pretty standard elsewhere too.
If Delta wanted to get serious about fixing this (instead of the usual excuses) I'm certain they could.
BTW, have you been through CVG lately? Delta's operation there has been reduced substantially, but they still have a fleet of de-ice trucks.
From what I understand OCC is not under flight operations and neither is crew accommodations (which is contracted out to a third party). That's a poor organizational structure. I sincerely hope a bunch of heads roll over these recent debacles.
I'm reminded of that phrase on military Officer Effectiveness Reports: "Sets low goals and fails to achieve them". IMHO, a pretty accurate statement on Delta.
With all due respect.
Virtually every time a snowstorm comes to ATL Delta has a meltdown. This happens year in and year out. It NEVER gets better! Why is it so difficult to built de-ice pads in ATL? Numerous other cities/airports have them! The de-ice pads could have their own drainage system for re-cycling the glycol. That's pretty standard elsewhere too.
If Delta wanted to get serious about fixing this (instead of the usual excuses) I'm certain they could.
BTW, have you been through CVG lately? Delta's operation there has been reduced substantially, but they still have a fleet of de-ice trucks.
From what I understand OCC is not under flight operations and neither is crew accommodations (which is contracted out to a third party). That's a poor organizational structure. I sincerely hope a bunch of heads roll over these recent debacles.
I'm reminded of that phrase on military Officer Effectiveness Reports: "Sets low goals and fails to achieve them". IMHO, a pretty accurate statement on Delta.
WP, where would you build them and how much would it cost to meet not only the EPA requirements but also to ensure that we could keep how ever many hundreads or 1000s of flights running here? I dont think the benefits will outweigh the cost. Its not a meltdown with people running around scared of snow, its a shutdown to prevent a bigger mess. Same as AirTran who also shutdoen for the same reason.
When I was based in EWR at XJT we had lots of 4 hour taxi's to deice while everyone else deiced at the gate and launched. It was very similiar to ATL but the CAL operation despite its massive size in EWR was still far smaller than ATLs.
When I was based in EWR at XJT we had lots of 4 hour taxi's to deice while everyone else deiced at the gate and launched. It was very similiar to ATL but the CAL operation despite its massive size in EWR was still far smaller than ATLs.
IMO, the best way to do it would be to do what PIT does. Have the airport do the deicing. (Contract though the airport) They have pads all over the place and everyone uses them. Put them near the end of the runways. Every runway. Put them near south cargo, Tech ops on the Southside, take that parking lot out for a pad near 9L, for 26L put one near the end. (This would require a build out of the current taxi way and is very expensive)
You could put them between the runways, but it would be single file and then in an area that is controlled by tower. (issues for that personnel working there)
The simple fact is that it is very costly. Very. Even putting the drainage system in at the end of the ramps so they could deice there, could lead to major ground holdouts at there would be one way taxi lines in the ramps.
01-17-2011, 10:19 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
If they did that I also think they ought to do taxiway L from D to the end of 27R and put drainage in. It's shut down right now and it might be their best chance but I'm sure it's a little late. We could do the IR hangars! 
Don't.
If ever they build a taxiway V on the south side they ought to consider from the beginning making it into a deice pad as well, some way some how.
BTW, this is from 1999:
Installing New Deicing Pads at Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport
Article Tools
Deicing pads are aircraft holding areas located near the runway. In cold weather, aircraft are treated here with deicing solution (primarily ethylene glycol) to remove or deice them before takeoff. Without deicing pads, aircraft treatment occurs at the gate, delaying airport traffic. This is especially problematic for Hartsfield because it is the world's busiest passenger airport, handling nearly 100 million passengers per year. The new facility features four separate glycol retention/detention systems, each using 180 ft. of 48-in.- and 15-in.-diameter pipe buried 25 ft. deep. The pipe serves as a containment system for stormwater and deicing-solution runoff from the deicing pads.
Beneath each deicing area is a retention/detention system to capture deicing fluid and/or stormwater runoff. Hartsfield's system is four 100- x 100-ft. holes containing three rows of Advanced Drainage System (ADS) polyethylene (PE) pipe buried 22-25 ft. deep. The pipe serves as a fluid-holding pen, slowing dispersal to the allowable outflow rate. At Hartsfield, the four containment systems are being built underneath the international concourse's ramp area and are subject to the weight of a Boeing 747, nearly 400,000 lb. when empty, according to Boeing, the aircraft's builder.
Getting Ready for Jumbo
Three rows of ADS PE pipe buried 22-25 ft. deep serve as a containment system for deicing-pad fluid and stormwater runoff.
Atlanta-based Aviation Constructors Inc. was the prime contractor for the job, with SDL Environmental of Palmetto, GA, tasked with the preparation, installation, and finishing work. As anyone who has done work at a busy airport knows, there's never a dull moment, but when you're digging holes that are 100 ft. on a side and 30 ft. deep in a confined space, surrounded by as much action as you'll find in a small war, the rules and restrictions are enough to drive strong men to drink.
"What started out to be a two- to three-month job turned out to take longer," explains SDL's Tom Boynton, reflecting on the difficulties inherent in the particular working environment. "Originally, the work was to be done at night, but we couldn't get the productivity we needed, so we switched to daytime operations instead." Daytime operations meant tedious, incessant, and time-consuming coordination with all the other activities taking place in the airport. Then there were the problems of weather, tight confines, and steep ramps in and out of the hole.
"Any hole deeper than 20 ft. has to be engineered," Boynton points out. "Our excavators [John Deere 892 and two JD 200s] just dug their way down into the hole under the engineer's direction and then drove their way out again." Other equipment on the job, which employed 16 people at its height, included a 750 Deere dozer, Moxy and Bell off-road dumps, and an Ingersoll-Rand roller.
"Tuning Fork" Construction
As to the installation of the plumbing, Boynton says, "Because of an aircraft's weight and the deicing solution's chemical nature, all containment-system material had to be strong, chemically inert, and watertight." PE pipe fulfills these requirements and saved time and work compared to a concrete or ductile iron pipe installation. "Corrugated PE pipe is lighter than ductile iron or concrete, and it's easy to assemble," he explains.
SDL Environmental and design engineers refer to the pipe containment system as a "tuning fork" because of its three-pronged appearance. The name was coined during the design stage and has been used ever since. The containment-system layout consists of three rows of ADS 48-in.-diameter, N-12 ProLink WT pipe that are sealed on one end. The open ends feed into 15-in. tees of PE corrugated pipe. The smaller pipe provides the path to the city's sanitary sewer system for deicing fluid runoff and to the airport's existing drainage system for stormwater runoff. A manual gate valve controls fluid-flow direction. After installation, the tuning forks were covered with No. 89 gravel and then approximately 3,000-4,000 yd. of dirt. "Compaction was a real issue," says Boynton, noting that airports are particular about that. "The soil that came out was a wet, silty clay. We had to mix in M10 sand to get it to compact properly."
In addition to the deicing-pad containment system, SDL Environmental also installed all sanitary sewer and storm piping and was responsible for grading.
Don't. If ever they build a taxiway V on the south side they ought to consider from the beginning making it into a deice pad as well, some way some how.
BTW, this is from 1999:
Installing New Deicing Pads at Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport
Article Tools
Deicing pads are aircraft holding areas located near the runway. In cold weather, aircraft are treated here with deicing solution (primarily ethylene glycol) to remove or deice them before takeoff. Without deicing pads, aircraft treatment occurs at the gate, delaying airport traffic. This is especially problematic for Hartsfield because it is the world's busiest passenger airport, handling nearly 100 million passengers per year. The new facility features four separate glycol retention/detention systems, each using 180 ft. of 48-in.- and 15-in.-diameter pipe buried 25 ft. deep. The pipe serves as a containment system for stormwater and deicing-solution runoff from the deicing pads.
Beneath each deicing area is a retention/detention system to capture deicing fluid and/or stormwater runoff. Hartsfield's system is four 100- x 100-ft. holes containing three rows of Advanced Drainage System (ADS) polyethylene (PE) pipe buried 22-25 ft. deep. The pipe serves as a fluid-holding pen, slowing dispersal to the allowable outflow rate. At Hartsfield, the four containment systems are being built underneath the international concourse's ramp area and are subject to the weight of a Boeing 747, nearly 400,000 lb. when empty, according to Boeing, the aircraft's builder.
Getting Ready for Jumbo
Three rows of ADS PE pipe buried 22-25 ft. deep serve as a containment system for deicing-pad fluid and stormwater runoff.
Atlanta-based Aviation Constructors Inc. was the prime contractor for the job, with SDL Environmental of Palmetto, GA, tasked with the preparation, installation, and finishing work. As anyone who has done work at a busy airport knows, there's never a dull moment, but when you're digging holes that are 100 ft. on a side and 30 ft. deep in a confined space, surrounded by as much action as you'll find in a small war, the rules and restrictions are enough to drive strong men to drink.
"What started out to be a two- to three-month job turned out to take longer," explains SDL's Tom Boynton, reflecting on the difficulties inherent in the particular working environment. "Originally, the work was to be done at night, but we couldn't get the productivity we needed, so we switched to daytime operations instead." Daytime operations meant tedious, incessant, and time-consuming coordination with all the other activities taking place in the airport. Then there were the problems of weather, tight confines, and steep ramps in and out of the hole.
"Any hole deeper than 20 ft. has to be engineered," Boynton points out. "Our excavators [John Deere 892 and two JD 200s] just dug their way down into the hole under the engineer's direction and then drove their way out again." Other equipment on the job, which employed 16 people at its height, included a 750 Deere dozer, Moxy and Bell off-road dumps, and an Ingersoll-Rand roller.
"Tuning Fork" Construction
As to the installation of the plumbing, Boynton says, "Because of an aircraft's weight and the deicing solution's chemical nature, all containment-system material had to be strong, chemically inert, and watertight." PE pipe fulfills these requirements and saved time and work compared to a concrete or ductile iron pipe installation. "Corrugated PE pipe is lighter than ductile iron or concrete, and it's easy to assemble," he explains.
SDL Environmental and design engineers refer to the pipe containment system as a "tuning fork" because of its three-pronged appearance. The name was coined during the design stage and has been used ever since. The containment-system layout consists of three rows of ADS 48-in.-diameter, N-12 ProLink WT pipe that are sealed on one end. The open ends feed into 15-in. tees of PE corrugated pipe. The smaller pipe provides the path to the city's sanitary sewer system for deicing fluid runoff and to the airport's existing drainage system for stormwater runoff. A manual gate valve controls fluid-flow direction. After installation, the tuning forks were covered with No. 89 gravel and then approximately 3,000-4,000 yd. of dirt. "Compaction was a real issue," says Boynton, noting that airports are particular about that. "The soil that came out was a wet, silty clay. We had to mix in M10 sand to get it to compact properly."
In addition to the deicing-pad containment system, SDL Environmental also installed all sanitary sewer and storm piping and was responsible for grading.
01-17-2011, 10:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
I got caught up in the last IROP and was/am completely disgusted with Delta's performance vis-a-vis aircrews. The support structure failed and failed miserably. What does Delta say? They blame the snow.
That's BS! It's been snowing since before Wilbur and Orville were born. It WILL snow in ATL. If a snowstorm is going to shut the whole operation down, perhaps the OCC/crew tracking/etc should be located where they have a clue how to deal with snow, so people can get to work.
Wait a sec... didn't NWA have an OCC (or something similar)? When a few inches of snow fell, did their airline come to a grinding halt? Maybe they were onto something....
How do you think it would work if called in and said "I'm having an IROP at home and can't do anything"? I'll bet it would get me a free trip to the Chief Pilot.
Rant Over (but disgust remains).
That's BS! It's been snowing since before Wilbur and Orville were born. It WILL snow in ATL. If a snowstorm is going to shut the whole operation down, perhaps the OCC/crew tracking/etc should be located where they have a clue how to deal with snow, so people can get to work.
Wait a sec... didn't NWA have an OCC (or something similar)? When a few inches of snow fell, did their airline come to a grinding halt? Maybe they were onto something....
How do you think it would work if called in and said "I'm having an IROP at home and can't do anything"? I'll bet it would get me a free trip to the Chief Pilot.
Rant Over (but disgust remains).
01-17-2011, 10:57 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I heard they did run out, but never had that confirmed.
I do not know what other pads we could use. They have to be approved and have the correct draining and storage for the runoff. I know AMR deices at the gate on Ramp one, but have never gone over to ask how they can do that and why we can't.
I remember the press when they found the deice fluid in the water supply. It changed the way we deice our jets in ATL. It effectively created a situation where we could not run half of the operation. Add the DOT-3 rule and any time we get snow or any other precip that requires a deice, the operation is going to get thinned out because of it.
Yes, we need to find a way to do better. Not arguing that. Just giving the background to why we have those pads on Ramp six.
I do not know what other pads we could use. They have to be approved and have the correct draining and storage for the runoff. I know AMR deices at the gate on Ramp one, but have never gone over to ask how they can do that and why we can't.
I remember the press when they found the deice fluid in the water supply. It changed the way we deice our jets in ATL. It effectively created a situation where we could not run half of the operation. Add the DOT-3 rule and any time we get snow or any other precip that requires a deice, the operation is going to get thinned out because of it.
Yes, we need to find a way to do better. Not arguing that. Just giving the background to why we have those pads on Ramp six.
The drainage thing is certainly not a simple fix, as it would require ramp/taxiway reconstruction and reshaping... one would think with all the contstruction they've been doing that some planning might have gone into that. But probably not since we're entering into global warming and snow might be a thing of the past.
01-17-2011, 11:57 AM
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01-17-2011, 12:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 180
We could overstaff all the crew tracking, scheduling, ramp, agents, etc. in Atlanta to cover stuff during an IROP and it wouldn't matter one bit because nobody will come to work when it snows. So then you have the overhead of staffing for an IROP and nobody will show up during an IROP.
Last edited by 80ktsClamp; 01-17-2011 at 12:21 PM. Reason: only ACL is allowed to not know how to use the quoting function... ;)
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