Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-31-2010, 06:16 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
The gopher hunter has it right.
There's one other factor in play as well. Pilot morale.
You might think management doesn't care whether we are happy or not but they are currently taking advantage of a group that regularly picks up all the open time, never calls in sick and generally goes all out to get the mission accomplished. That can change quickly with just a little shift in the rhetoric coming from our union leadership.
Moak was all about cooperation and engagement and working together. That worked. Management certainly loved it. Guys bought it. The company prospered financially. The pilots, not so much. We have been operating on the principle of deferred gratification. We worked hard and worked for cheap the last few years expecting to be paid later. Well; later has arrived. We aren't willing to wait another 2 or 3 years to see some payback. Constructive engagement was supposed to be a two-way street. That's about to be tested.
If Anderson reverts to Mullin mode and points to the 2013 amendable date saying "a contract is a contract" then he's quickly going to find himself with a very angry and far less productive pilot group. The operation will suffer and we will be much more assertive and adversarial in the section 6 negotiations. What the captains write on the back of those "Thank-You" cards for our HVCs may not be what management was expecting.
I think that's why they're considering some "adjustments" prior to the amendable date.
There's one other factor in play as well. Pilot morale.
You might think management doesn't care whether we are happy or not but they are currently taking advantage of a group that regularly picks up all the open time, never calls in sick and generally goes all out to get the mission accomplished. That can change quickly with just a little shift in the rhetoric coming from our union leadership.
Moak was all about cooperation and engagement and working together. That worked. Management certainly loved it. Guys bought it. The company prospered financially. The pilots, not so much. We have been operating on the principle of deferred gratification. We worked hard and worked for cheap the last few years expecting to be paid later. Well; later has arrived. We aren't willing to wait another 2 or 3 years to see some payback. Constructive engagement was supposed to be a two-way street. That's about to be tested.
If Anderson reverts to Mullin mode and points to the 2013 amendable date saying "a contract is a contract" then he's quickly going to find himself with a very angry and far less productive pilot group. The operation will suffer and we will be much more assertive and adversarial in the section 6 negotiations. What the captains write on the back of those "Thank-You" cards for our HVCs may not be what management was expecting.
I think that's why they're considering some "adjustments" prior to the amendable date.
12-31-2010, 06:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 243
While you can't get exact numbers for yearly block hours these links do provide some great info.
SWA
DAL
Down near the bottom you will find that SWA flew 2,026,134 Block Hrs for 2009 with 5634 pilots. Thats 360 Hrs/pilot x 2 for the 737 = 720 Hrs/pilot for 2009.
If you assume that 10% don't fly for various reasons the number is 800 Hrs/pilot.
Delta's numbers are much harder to extrapolate because of international ops with 3 and 4 man crews.
Delta flew 2,696,379 Blk Hrs in 2009 with 10,785 pilots. That's 250 Hrs/pilot x 2.5 (which is a wag on my part to account for 3 and 4 pilot crews) = 625 Hrs/pilots.
Again assuming 10% don't fly the number is 695 Hrs/pilot.
Now numbers that are much more important.
For 2009 the revenue per pilot at SWA and Delta were almost the same and historically trend close together.
On the other hand Delta's average pilot salary was $138,000 while SWA average was $177,000.
-vpr
SWA
DAL
Down near the bottom you will find that SWA flew 2,026,134 Block Hrs for 2009 with 5634 pilots. Thats 360 Hrs/pilot x 2 for the 737 = 720 Hrs/pilot for 2009.
If you assume that 10% don't fly for various reasons the number is 800 Hrs/pilot.
Delta's numbers are much harder to extrapolate because of international ops with 3 and 4 man crews.
Delta flew 2,696,379 Blk Hrs in 2009 with 10,785 pilots. That's 250 Hrs/pilot x 2.5 (which is a wag on my part to account for 3 and 4 pilot crews) = 625 Hrs/pilots.
Again assuming 10% don't fly the number is 695 Hrs/pilot.
Now numbers that are much more important.
For 2009 the revenue per pilot at SWA and Delta were almost the same and historically trend close together.
On the other hand Delta's average pilot salary was $138,000 while SWA average was $177,000.
-vpr
12-31-2010, 06:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
You're correct in that the company is under no obligation. It could make sense to them as long as they got an extension of the amendable date and our pay increases beyond that kept us below industry standard. The argument would be to get increases now for the next two years that we would not have gotten, and in return, get paid less than what they project for pilots in 2013 and 2014.
Carl
Carl
12-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Kept us below industry standard??? Carl, you need to re-check your facts. You're on the 747. You're pretty much the highest paid airline pilot out there at the moment. Here are the 1/1/2011 rates for the highest paying equipment at each airline:
DAL $217
LUV $214
AMR $205
CAL $193
UAL $190
USAir $160
And here are the rates for the 737-800 at each airline:
LUV $214
DAL $175
ALA $175
CAL $169
AMR $166
AWA $142
UAL $137
USAir $125
I agree we are way below what we used to get paid, and way below what we are "worth", but we're well above industry standard for all passenger airlines. Just the facts. Hmmm, who was the MEC Chairman that made that happen?
DAL $217
LUV $214
AMR $205
CAL $193
UAL $190
USAir $160
And here are the rates for the 737-800 at each airline:
LUV $214
DAL $175
ALA $175
CAL $169
AMR $166
AWA $142
UAL $137
USAir $125
I agree we are way below what we used to get paid, and way below what we are "worth", but we're well above industry standard for all passenger airlines. Just the facts. Hmmm, who was the MEC Chairman that made that happen?
We have, what 16 747s? Southwest has 547 737s!
So all their captains (assuming they have the longevity) are paid a higher hourly rate than all of our captains except for the few on the 747 and 777.
I'm an A-320 captain. So how is my pay relative to SWA? (Hint: It's a whole lot less.)
But I'm sure you'll point out I get a raise tomorrow and the difference will be less than 50 bucks an hour. Gee, that's so close...
12-31-2010, 06:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
While you can't get exact numbers for yearly block hours these links do provide some great info.
SWA
DAL
Down near the bottom you will find that SWA flew 2,026,134 Block Hrs for 2009 with 5634 pilots. Thats 360 Hrs/pilot x 2 for the 737 = 720 Hrs/pilot for 2009.
If you assume that 10% don't fly for various reasons the number is 800 Hrs/pilot.
Delta's numbers are much harder to extrapolate because of international ops with 3 and 4 man crews.
Delta flew 2,696,379 Blk Hrs in 2009 with 10,785 pilots. That's 250 Hrs/pilot x 2.5 (which is a wag on my part to account for 3 and 4 pilot crews) = 625 Hrs/pilots.
Again assuming 10% don't fly the number is 695 Hrs/pilot.
Now numbers that are much more important.
For 2009 the revenue per pilot at SWA and Delta were almost the same and historically trend close together.
On the other hand Delta's average pilot salary was $138,000 while SWA average was $177,000.
-vpr
SWA
DAL
Down near the bottom you will find that SWA flew 2,026,134 Block Hrs for 2009 with 5634 pilots. Thats 360 Hrs/pilot x 2 for the 737 = 720 Hrs/pilot for 2009.
If you assume that 10% don't fly for various reasons the number is 800 Hrs/pilot.
Delta's numbers are much harder to extrapolate because of international ops with 3 and 4 man crews.
Delta flew 2,696,379 Blk Hrs in 2009 with 10,785 pilots. That's 250 Hrs/pilot x 2.5 (which is a wag on my part to account for 3 and 4 pilot crews) = 625 Hrs/pilots.
Again assuming 10% don't fly the number is 695 Hrs/pilot.
Now numbers that are much more important.
For 2009 the revenue per pilot at SWA and Delta were almost the same and historically trend close together.
On the other hand Delta's average pilot salary was $138,000 while SWA average was $177,000.
-vpr
12-31-2010, 07:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Come on PG,
We have, what 16 747s? Southwest has 547 737s!
So all their captains (assuming they have the longevity) are paid a higher hourly rate than all of our captains except for the few on the 747 and 777.
I'm an A-320 captain. So how is my pay relative to SWA? (Hint: It's a whole lot less.)
We have, what 16 747s? Southwest has 547 737s!
So all their captains (assuming they have the longevity) are paid a higher hourly rate than all of our captains except for the few on the 747 and 777.
I'm an A-320 captain. So how is my pay relative to SWA? (Hint: It's a whole lot less.)
One airline (SWA) does not define "industry standard". Neither do cargo carriers.
So many people continue to bad mouth our pay, while refusing to acknowledge that, in spite of how bad it is relative to the past, we are near the top at the moment. Call them bankruptcy wages if you want, but they are almost industry leading. That's pathetic, I admit, but it is what it is, and to ignore that reality, is to live in a dreamworld.
12-31-2010, 07:53 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
No argument. Your pay (and mine) is a whole lot less than SWA. But that wasn't the point of my post. Carl stated that DAL will open early and give us meager pay raises to "keep us below industry standard". I simply showed that we are at or near the top of the industry at present.
One airline (SWA) does not define "industry standard". Neither do cargo carriers.
So many people continue to bad mouth our pay, while refusing to acknowledge that, in spite of how bad it is relative to the past, we are near the top at the moment. Call them bankruptcy wages if you want, but they are almost industry leading. That's pathetic, I admit, but it is what it is, and to ignore that reality, is to live in a dreamworld.
One airline (SWA) does not define "industry standard". Neither do cargo carriers.
So many people continue to bad mouth our pay, while refusing to acknowledge that, in spite of how bad it is relative to the past, we are near the top at the moment. Call them bankruptcy wages if you want, but they are almost industry leading. That's pathetic, I admit, but it is what it is, and to ignore that reality, is to live in a dreamworld.
We need to look beyond pay rates. I want rate raises too, but we need to work on rigs & work rules too.
12-31-2010, 08:36 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,098
Agreed. JetBlue just got raises & they didn't even match our 320 rates, let alone exceed them. And have you seen what North American or Omni get paid to fly their jets? How about Kalitta, Atlas, World, Southern, Polar, or Evergreen?
We need to look beyond pay rates. I want rate raises too, but we need to work on rigs & work rules too.
We need to look beyond pay rates. I want rate raises too, but we need to work on rigs & work rules too.
I think we need to fix reserve (make it predictable and fair) and create a company policy that gets commuters to work -- even though I'm not one. Doing so would mean that our "sickcall" rates would improve and we wouldn't need as many reserve pilots. But at the same time, I don't want money that could go into my pocket book to be used to pay for commuters. Unfortunately, I really think the feds are going to "fix" that area for us soon.
I am all for our company becoming leaner and more efficient with our pilots. I don't want to pay for people to sit at home and do nothing. Those days are over. You are costing all of us money to do that. I just came off a 85 day reserve stint where I did nothing ... absolutely nothing. That is ludicrous. I understand in the super premium wide bodies, reserves may not be used much, but in the narrow body when other bases are bleeding, it doesn't make sense for someone to be sitting at home.
Better pay, more efficient scheduling, fix reserve and commuting.
12-31-2010, 08:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Apple, gonna throw the B S Flag on this.
The largest aviation market in the world is the United States domestic market. The largest carrier of domestic revenue passengers which flies the most revenue passengers miles flown in this market is ...SWA.
And....that is before they absorb AirTran. So, in name only SWA does not define industry average. However, when you look at the amount of flying they do relative other carriers in this market, they do more than define average. They set the bar.
Sorry Apple, here comes another B S Flag.
It is naive not to compare us to cargo carriers such as FedEX and UPS. As the economy picks up, so does our under the floor premium cargo business. We fly more and more cargo in our daily ops every year. Not one item passes through our cargo doors without revenue being collected.
How much $$$$$$$$$$$$ did they make at the widget factory last year on baggage fees alone. Last I checked, baggage and cargo are one and the same.
Finally, as long as we are gazing into the compensation and benefit mirror on the wall and comparing ourselves to other aviators, lets not forget our bro's from different ho's. If your really want to distill this down similiar types of operations, this must be included.
How much do our SkyTeam bro's at AirFrance/KLM make. What are their work rules like. Hint: We have much room for improvement
12-31-2010, 09:03 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Happy New Years everyone and best wishes in 2011. Now down to business.
Apple, gonna throw the B S Flag on this.
The largest aviation market in the world is the United States domestic market. The largest carrier of domestic revenue passengers which flies the most revenue passengers miles flown in this market is ...SWA.
And....that is before they absorb AirTran. So, in name only SWA does not define industry average. However, when you look at the amount of flying they do relative other carriers in this market, they do more than define average. They set the bar.
Sorry Apple, here comes another B S Flag.
It is naive not to compare us to cargo carriers such as FedEX and UPS. As the economy picks up, so does our under the floor premium cargo business. We fly more and more cargo in our daily ops every year. Not one item passes through our cargo doors without revenue being collected.
How much $$$$$$$$$$$$ did they make at the widget factory last year on baggage fees alone. Last I checked, baggage and cargo are one and the same.
Finally, as long as we are gazing into the compensation and benefit mirror on the wall and comparing ourselves to other aviators, lets not forget our bro's from different ho's. If your really want to distill this down similiar types of operations, this must be included.
How much do our SkyTeam bro's at AirFrance/KLM make. What are their work rules like. Hint: We have much room for improvement
Apple, gonna throw the B S Flag on this.
The largest aviation market in the world is the United States domestic market. The largest carrier of domestic revenue passengers which flies the most revenue passengers miles flown in this market is ...SWA.
And....that is before they absorb AirTran. So, in name only SWA does not define industry average. However, when you look at the amount of flying they do relative other carriers in this market, they do more than define average. They set the bar.
Sorry Apple, here comes another B S Flag.
It is naive not to compare us to cargo carriers such as FedEX and UPS. As the economy picks up, so does our under the floor premium cargo business. We fly more and more cargo in our daily ops every year. Not one item passes through our cargo doors without revenue being collected.
How much $$$$$$$$$$$$ did they make at the widget factory last year on baggage fees alone. Last I checked, baggage and cargo are one and the same.
Finally, as long as we are gazing into the compensation and benefit mirror on the wall and comparing ourselves to other aviators, lets not forget our bro's from different ho's. If your really want to distill this down similiar types of operations, this must be included.
How much do our SkyTeam bro's at AirFrance/KLM make. What are their work rules like. Hint: We have much room for improvement
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