Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-15-2010, 10:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 418
Questions I'm sure are right in the contract or somewhere else...
1. When swapping with the "pot"...the two day ahead processing block is based on what time? base/trip checkin time? 0001am?
2. Does PBS bidding run during the night? If so does it put the bid out on it's own or does it need human input to post?
1. When swapping with the "pot"...the two day ahead processing block is based on what time? base/trip checkin time? 0001am?
2. Does PBS bidding run during the night? If so does it put the bid out on it's own or does it need human input to post?
12-15-2010, 10:47 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Sailing, this is not a hostile post. I'm arguing for an update in the way we think. Lets call it Delta pilots first.
Let us look at this purely from the perspective of what is good for Delta pilots. We don't represent Comair.
Because we failed to merge ASA and Comair Delta flying went from over 91% of block to somewhere around 50 percent from 1999 to 2007. Because we allowed management other options at least 1,200 Delta jobs were lost. Because we failed to keep our flying unified, we allowed Delta management to furlough Delta pilots while Delta was hiring pilots (even street Captains) at their other divisions. Same happened at NWA for much the same reasons. Pilots at Delta lost longevity. Other Delta employees did not.
Fast forward to today. Junior Delta pilots have "job protection" that includes a flow down back to a regional job. I'd bet not one Delta pilots wants to flow down ... they worked for a Delta job and if displaced, they want to continue wearing a Delta uniform.
I believe ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Yet, many Delta pilots desire other representation because of a perceived conflict of interest within ALPA. Our failure to seek unity is a threat to ALPA.
In future negotiations we must now compete, just as the equipment we operate competes on a CASM basis. The greater our pay the greater the incentive to outsource our jobs.
I could give a hoot about Lawson, his stupid letter and his table position on seniority. (I was also in meetings with him and the ASA MEC where Bob Arnold and Danny Utley explained that by paycheck, or equipment type a staple on the bottom would be status quo)
There was a political motivation to highlight the differences with ALPA members at ASA, Comair and other carriers. ALPA's default position should have been unity, but there were reasons why leadership chose a path that split our union. Which brings us to your next point.
That's the accepted thinking. It's wrong.
Scope defines who is a Delta pilot and what a Delta pilot operates. Section 1 defines our seniority list.
Management would have received huge windfall had Northwest bought Delta, stripped us of our code and begun distributing our flying to competitive carriers. That did not happen because of Section 1.
We've fallen into a rut where we've let ourselves find justifications for dividing ALPA members and highlighting our conflicts. That reason is outsourcing. It did not start with us. US Air received contractual gains though scope liberalization, then United followed. Contract 2000 was influenced by United's contract, which was substantially built on sharing the expected profitability of outsourcing with management.
If we are done with outsourcing more of our flying, then we don't need to justify divisions among ALPA members. It is old, tired thinking, no more relevant today than McCarthyism.
A strong, unified, ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Give unity a chance.
First I would do a little research on the famous Lawson letter from Comair.
The last point is that there was talk many years ago about trying to bring both Comair and ASA on the seniority list via negotiations with the company. It was considered a huge long shot to ever convince the company but many wanted to try. There were several meetings between the groups. At the one I attended the Comair MEC made it 100 percent crystal clear they would never except a staple. They stated they would only agree to use ALPA merger policy and there position in a attempted merger would be DOH. Who knows what a arbitrator would have awarded but once there demands were public the support was gone.
The last point is that there was talk many years ago about trying to bring both Comair and ASA on the seniority list via negotiations with the company. It was considered a huge long shot to ever convince the company but many wanted to try. There were several meetings between the groups. At the one I attended the Comair MEC made it 100 percent crystal clear they would never except a staple. They stated they would only agree to use ALPA merger policy and there position in a attempted merger would be DOH. Who knows what a arbitrator would have awarded but once there demands were public the support was gone.
Because we failed to merge ASA and Comair Delta flying went from over 91% of block to somewhere around 50 percent from 1999 to 2007. Because we allowed management other options at least 1,200 Delta jobs were lost. Because we failed to keep our flying unified, we allowed Delta management to furlough Delta pilots while Delta was hiring pilots (even street Captains) at their other divisions. Same happened at NWA for much the same reasons. Pilots at Delta lost longevity. Other Delta employees did not.
Fast forward to today. Junior Delta pilots have "job protection" that includes a flow down back to a regional job. I'd bet not one Delta pilots wants to flow down ... they worked for a Delta job and if displaced, they want to continue wearing a Delta uniform.
I believe ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Yet, many Delta pilots desire other representation because of a perceived conflict of interest within ALPA. Our failure to seek unity is a threat to ALPA.
In future negotiations we must now compete, just as the equipment we operate competes on a CASM basis. The greater our pay the greater the incentive to outsource our jobs.
I could give a hoot about Lawson, his stupid letter and his table position on seniority. (I was also in meetings with him and the ASA MEC where Bob Arnold and Danny Utley explained that by paycheck, or equipment type a staple on the bottom would be status quo)
There was a political motivation to highlight the differences with ALPA members at ASA, Comair and other carriers. ALPA's default position should have been unity, but there were reasons why leadership chose a path that split our union. Which brings us to your next point.
Scope defines who is a Delta pilot and what a Delta pilot operates. Section 1 defines our seniority list.
Management would have received huge windfall had Northwest bought Delta, stripped us of our code and begun distributing our flying to competitive carriers. That did not happen because of Section 1.
We've fallen into a rut where we've let ourselves find justifications for dividing ALPA members and highlighting our conflicts. That reason is outsourcing. It did not start with us. US Air received contractual gains though scope liberalization, then United followed. Contract 2000 was influenced by United's contract, which was substantially built on sharing the expected profitability of outsourcing with management.
If we are done with outsourcing more of our flying, then we don't need to justify divisions among ALPA members. It is old, tired thinking, no more relevant today than McCarthyism.
A strong, unified, ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Give unity a chance.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 12-16-2010 at 12:33 AM.
12-15-2010, 11:01 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
But a Compass staple would have done nothing to plug the gaping hole in scope without also fighting and spending capital on reducing what can be outsourced. ....
Now if stapling a particular pilot group or groups in some way facilitates the reduction in allowable outsourcing limits and totals, then by all means let's do it.
Now if stapling a particular pilot group or groups in some way facilitates the reduction in allowable outsourcing limits and totals, then by all means let's do it.
IMHO current Compass book would have been fine, with the limit at the current fleet number. Aircraft #37 would require the company to open the contract. Flying the thing at current book would have been worth it for unity.
Bringing Compass on board would have provided a model for recapturing flying that set the precedent for a staple seniority order that benefits ALPA members from both carriers. It would have made our union more relevant. It would have increased Delta pilot jobs.
What could have been
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 12-16-2010 at 12:18 AM.
12-16-2010, 03:05 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Sailing, this is not a hostile post. I'm arguing for an update in the way we think. Lets call it Delta pilots first.
Let us look at this purely from the perspective of what is good for Delta pilots. We don't represent Comair.
Because we failed to merge ASA and Comair Delta flying went from over 91% of block to somewhere around 50 percent from 1999 to 2007. Because we allowed management other options at least 1,200 Delta jobs were lost. Because we failed to keep our flying unified, we allowed Delta management to furlough Delta pilots while Delta was hiring pilots (even street Captains) at their other divisions. Same happened at NWA for much the same reasons. Pilots at Delta lost longevity. Other Delta employees did not.
Fast forward to today. Junior Delta pilots have "job protection" that includes a flow down back to a regional job. I'd bet not one Delta pilots wants to flow down ... they worked for a Delta job and if displaced, they want to continue wearing a Delta uniform.
I believe ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Yet, many Delta pilots desire other representation because of a perceived conflict of interest within ALPA. Our failure to seek unity is a threat to ALPA.
In future negotiations we must now compete, just as the equipment we operate competes on a CASM basis. The greater our pay the greater the incentive to outsource our jobs.
I could give a hoot about Lawson, his stupid letter and his table position on seniority. (I was also in meetings with him and the ASA MEC where Bob Arnold and Danny Utley explained that by paycheck, or equipment type a staple on the bottom would be status quo)
There was a political motivation to highlight the differences with ALPA members at ASA, Comair and other carriers. ALPA's default position should have been unity, but there were reasons why leadership chose a path that split our union. Which brings us to your next point.That's the accepted thinking. It's wrong.
Scope defines who is a Delta pilot and what a Delta pilot operates. Section 1 defines our seniority list.
Management would have received huge windfall had Northwest bought Delta, stripped us of our code and begun distributing our flying to competitive carriers. That did not happen because of Section 1.
We've fallen into a rut where we've let ourselves find justifications for dividing ALPA members and highlighting our conflicts. That reason is outsourcing. It did not start with us. US Air received contractual gains though scope liberalization, then United followed. Contract 2000 was influenced by United's contract, which was substantially built on sharing the expected profitability of outsourcing with management.
If we are done with outsourcing more of our flying, then we don't need to justify divisions among ALPA members. It is old, tired thinking, no more relevant today than McCarthyism.
A strong, unified, ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Give unity a chance.
Let us look at this purely from the perspective of what is good for Delta pilots. We don't represent Comair.
Because we failed to merge ASA and Comair Delta flying went from over 91% of block to somewhere around 50 percent from 1999 to 2007. Because we allowed management other options at least 1,200 Delta jobs were lost. Because we failed to keep our flying unified, we allowed Delta management to furlough Delta pilots while Delta was hiring pilots (even street Captains) at their other divisions. Same happened at NWA for much the same reasons. Pilots at Delta lost longevity. Other Delta employees did not.
Fast forward to today. Junior Delta pilots have "job protection" that includes a flow down back to a regional job. I'd bet not one Delta pilots wants to flow down ... they worked for a Delta job and if displaced, they want to continue wearing a Delta uniform.
I believe ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Yet, many Delta pilots desire other representation because of a perceived conflict of interest within ALPA. Our failure to seek unity is a threat to ALPA.
In future negotiations we must now compete, just as the equipment we operate competes on a CASM basis. The greater our pay the greater the incentive to outsource our jobs.
I could give a hoot about Lawson, his stupid letter and his table position on seniority. (I was also in meetings with him and the ASA MEC where Bob Arnold and Danny Utley explained that by paycheck, or equipment type a staple on the bottom would be status quo)
There was a political motivation to highlight the differences with ALPA members at ASA, Comair and other carriers. ALPA's default position should have been unity, but there were reasons why leadership chose a path that split our union. Which brings us to your next point.That's the accepted thinking. It's wrong.
Scope defines who is a Delta pilot and what a Delta pilot operates. Section 1 defines our seniority list.
Management would have received huge windfall had Northwest bought Delta, stripped us of our code and begun distributing our flying to competitive carriers. That did not happen because of Section 1.
We've fallen into a rut where we've let ourselves find justifications for dividing ALPA members and highlighting our conflicts. That reason is outsourcing. It did not start with us. US Air received contractual gains though scope liberalization, then United followed. Contract 2000 was influenced by United's contract, which was substantially built on sharing the expected profitability of outsourcing with management.
If we are done with outsourcing more of our flying, then we don't need to justify divisions among ALPA members. It is old, tired thinking, no more relevant today than McCarthyism.
A strong, unified, ALPA benefits Delta pilots. Give unity a chance.
Bar;
Great post!
I think unity starts with ALPA though. Maybe it is time for a union re-education program. To be honest, the high road cannot start with the Delta pilots.
I dont think there is any hope for reconciliation with Comair tho. Mgmt has already stonewalled them and started to cut them adrift, couple this with "bad blood" and the march of time. Comair pilots individually can be great folks, but they are on a sinking ship and need to realize it.
JMO as divisive as it sounds.
12-16-2010, 03:43 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
I think Delta's plan is to let Comair wither on the vine. It's been rumored they have shopped them around with no takers so they will just gradually shrink them. Aren't they going from 100 some odd jets to 44? Don't know the numbers so don't flame me.
12-16-2010, 04:51 AM
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
12-16-2010, 05:18 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Good for you... it still doesn't mean anything. Oh wait.. some guy at the gym who says he has an actualy subscription to the WSJ AND IBD told me there was an ad talking about..... IOW.. YOU may consider them credible.. I have not a clue whether they are the janitor at the Watergate or an actual source.
12-16-2010, 05:53 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I think Comair is 'right sizing' for another sale attempt.
Last edited by johnso29; 12-16-2010 at 06:27 AM.
12-16-2010, 06:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
I'm a fan of your in that the majority of your posts are well thought out and your arguments are usually quite cogent.
However, I'm not in favor of stapling (or integrating through other methods) significant quantities of pilots. Here's why:
[I suspect this next part may offend some people (and that's not my intent) but it is my opinion on this issue.]
In 20+ years of flying for DAL I've been very, very impressed with the pilots I've flown with. They are, as a rule, excellent aviators, hard working, "professional" and enjoyable to have a beer or two with on a layover.
Who you work with is a major plus or minus in terms of one's work environment. IMHO DAL has done an outstanding job of recruiting, vetting and hiring superior caliber individuals. (Note I've had the pleasure of flying with several former NWA pilots and they too are top notch!)
While unity may be a worthwhile objective, if it means stapling a bunch of pilots who otherwise would not have been hired due to qualifications, personality, etc. I'm against it.
12-16-2010, 06:20 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
Bar;
Great post!
I think unity starts with ALPA though. Maybe it is time for a union re-education program. To be honest, the high road cannot start with the Delta pilots.
I dont think there is any hope for reconciliation with Comair tho. Mgmt has already stonewalled them and started to cut them adrift, couple this with "bad blood" and the march of time. Comair pilots individually can be great folks, but they are on a sinking ship and need to realize it.
JMO as divisive as it sounds.
Great post!
I think unity starts with ALPA though. Maybe it is time for a union re-education program. To be honest, the high road cannot start with the Delta pilots.
I dont think there is any hope for reconciliation with Comair tho. Mgmt has already stonewalled them and started to cut them adrift, couple this with "bad blood" and the march of time. Comair pilots individually can be great folks, but they are on a sinking ship and need to realize it.
JMO as divisive as it sounds.
Delta management is like a elephant. They never forget. They will never forgive the Comair pilots for the strike. That is why they have never seen the EMB170/175. If somehow we managed to convince management to merge the companies they would quickly dump all their aircraft and we would be left with a large number of pilots on furlough.
The only way to merge any DCI carrier is if we make the changes in scope to capture that flying otherwise we lose the flying to the lower bidders and have pilots on the street.
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