Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-14-2010, 02:10 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: A-320/A
Posts: 588
You assume too much. The vast majority of regional pilots do NOT want to stay at the regionals. They would much rather gather experience and apply for a job at a major carrier.
The problem is that major airline pilots gave away the flying. Major airline pilots were too cool to fly those 'small jets' and didn't want them on the property. We, major airline pilots, allowed scope concessions and the creation of B-scale airlines (Compass) to grow. Didn't you work for the major airline that created Compass?? We both now work for the airline that gave away the most RJ's....silly pilots!
Most regional pilots I know say "SCREW THIS JOB" I wish those major airline pilots would grow some balls and not give away the farm!! Who wants to make a carreer at Mesa....uuggggg.
I used to commute weekly on UAL up and down the west coast. I had the same senior captain a few times. Each time he saw me he'd go on a rant about how regional pilots were ruining the industry. At that time my airline was taking delivery of shiny new 30 seat turbo-props....wow, I now had a hot 23 year flight attendant to look at and an APU!! We had just started getting a handful of RJ's to fly for UAL.
I got sick of sitting on my thumb and listening to his rant so I did some research on RJ proliferation at that time. Next week I brought the research that the American pilots had done. I also looked into how the regionals got the first RJ and how other major ALPA carriers pilots did not want to fly these jets due to the low offered pay scales that could potentially lower the bigger jets pay rates.
Armed with my info I politely asked for the jumpseat. It was the same senior UAL captain that greeted me with the usual, "aahh, it's the mosquito pilot trying to bum a ride again. You guys are trying to steal my job. Have a seat." The FO just shook his head in disgust.
We got to cruise and he started the rant again. This time I pulled out my ammo and we had a good debate. I presented facts, he presented emotion. He got upset when his FO looked at him and said, "you know, the mosquito pilot is right." After a few minutes of silence he admitted that I may have been right.
Carl, I didn't hit the lottery to get to Delta. I worked my way up through a system created over decades. This is the route civilian pilots take. Civilian pilots are heavily reliant on the path the senior pilots have carved for the junior guys. The decision senior pilots at a major airline made over the last 15-20 years are what created this mess. Now we have to fix it.
The problem is that major airline pilots gave away the flying. Major airline pilots were too cool to fly those 'small jets' and didn't want them on the property. We, major airline pilots, allowed scope concessions and the creation of B-scale airlines (Compass) to grow. Didn't you work for the major airline that created Compass?? We both now work for the airline that gave away the most RJ's....silly pilots!
Most regional pilots I know say "SCREW THIS JOB" I wish those major airline pilots would grow some balls and not give away the farm!! Who wants to make a carreer at Mesa....uuggggg.
I used to commute weekly on UAL up and down the west coast. I had the same senior captain a few times. Each time he saw me he'd go on a rant about how regional pilots were ruining the industry. At that time my airline was taking delivery of shiny new 30 seat turbo-props....wow, I now had a hot 23 year flight attendant to look at and an APU!! We had just started getting a handful of RJ's to fly for UAL.
I got sick of sitting on my thumb and listening to his rant so I did some research on RJ proliferation at that time. Next week I brought the research that the American pilots had done. I also looked into how the regionals got the first RJ and how other major ALPA carriers pilots did not want to fly these jets due to the low offered pay scales that could potentially lower the bigger jets pay rates.
Armed with my info I politely asked for the jumpseat. It was the same senior UAL captain that greeted me with the usual, "aahh, it's the mosquito pilot trying to bum a ride again. You guys are trying to steal my job. Have a seat." The FO just shook his head in disgust.
We got to cruise and he started the rant again. This time I pulled out my ammo and we had a good debate. I presented facts, he presented emotion. He got upset when his FO looked at him and said, "you know, the mosquito pilot is right." After a few minutes of silence he admitted that I may have been right.
Carl, I didn't hit the lottery to get to Delta. I worked my way up through a system created over decades. This is the route civilian pilots take. Civilian pilots are heavily reliant on the path the senior pilots have carved for the junior guys. The decision senior pilots at a major airline made over the last 15-20 years are what created this mess. Now we have to fix it.
Chuck
10-14-2010, 02:53 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
You make a very good point here, and I'm willing to admit that my first post was overstating the "lifer" effect a bit. However, I still think everyone needs to understand that that element is alive and well at the regional level, and it's not insignificant. My feeling is that it is steadily growing as well.
If anything they may talk the talk but in reality few are walking the walk. Ask all of those "pilots within ALPA" if they have apps in at the majors. Most will freely admit yes. They "fear" being stuck. I know in the earlier part of last decade I did not know the way this career was going to turn. I was giving it until 33. After that point, I would have explored other options. (I already was but not acting on them)
More would admit it or decide to do it when there is 1) career progression not stagnation at the majors, and 2) less of a threat that their jobs will be outsourced from the bottom of the mainline list. UAL wins or even holds the line at 70 and it will mean a lot of furloughees will get their jobs back. It will also mean more jobs at the mainline.
It has only been a few years since CH11. Going forward I assume the natural progression of ones career will go back to more of the way it was pre 9-11.
10-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Happy to be here
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Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl I value your opinions on here because of the fact that you do have alot of experience and you have seen stuff many of us have not. However, a corporate, freight, or non-sched guy will be at a disadvantage to guys who have 121 jet flying in RJ's these days. I know guys who do interview prep courses and I know guys who do interviews at Delta. Both will agree with horsepilot that the quickest route to a major these days in through RJ flying. I don't know the numbers, but I'd bet less than 1% of pilots hired at majors come from places other than the military and RJ operators. I personally don't know any that came from freight or non-sched operators and I only know 1 that was prior corporate.
I have also never heard of anyone who went to fly an RJ so they could get super prepared for the military, not saying it hasn't happned, but I've certainly never heard of it.
I have also never heard of anyone who went to fly an RJ so they could get super prepared for the military, not saying it hasn't happned, but I've certainly never heard of it.
There are a few, but many that come from a corporate outfit once worked for a RJ operator at some point in their past (FTB
)
10-14-2010, 03:11 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Are you somehow trying to imply that becoming a regional pilot in hopes of getting hired by a major, is the root of the problem?
Again, DAL pilots gave away scope. It wasn't ALPA national and it definitely wasn't regional pilots that took it away. You have got to stop putting this ridiculous spin on the topic. With the exception of the misguided few at the RJDC, I doubt if you can find many RJ pilots who would rather be at the regional than at a major, and therefore want to "steal" your flying.
I must concur with the others, if your views on the subject are those of the DPA, then I am not interested.
Again, DAL pilots gave away scope. It wasn't ALPA national and it definitely wasn't regional pilots that took it away. You have got to stop putting this ridiculous spin on the topic. With the exception of the misguided few at the RJDC, I doubt if you can find many RJ pilots who would rather be at the regional than at a major, and therefore want to "steal" your flying.
I must concur with the others, if your views on the subject are those of the DPA, then I am not interested.
When I went back to reply though... I again realized that, while he has good intentions, he is so far on a disconnect with the current process in making your way up in the civilian world that it just isn't worth it to argue.
A little fun fact for Carl (knowing full well it won't do any good): as far as I can tell, FTB is the only DAL pilot that regularly posts on here that got hired directly from corporate, and he previously flew for Expressjet. It don't even know if the people that don't come from regionals or military make up a full 1% of newhires. (and that's why FTB is so speshul...)
With that, Carl and I are going to have to agree to disagree as I'm through banging my head against the wall.
As far as his views for the DPA, I'd rather have him in a position of leadership with his skewed views rather than a senior guy that thinks scope is just a brand of mouthwash.
10-14-2010, 03:21 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl I value your opinions on here because of the fact that you do have alot of experience and you have seen stuff many of us have not. However, a corporate, freight, or non-sched guy will be at a disadvantage to guys who have 121 jet flying in RJ's these days. I know guys who do interview prep courses and I know guys who do interviews at Delta. Both will agree with horsepilot that the quickest route to a major these days in through RJ flying. I don't know the numbers, but I'd bet less than 1% of pilots hired at majors come from places other than the military and RJ operators. I personally don't know any that came from freight or non-sched operators and I only know 1 that was prior corporate.
I have also never heard of anyone who went to fly an RJ so they could get super prepared for the military, not saying it hasn't happned, but I've certainly never heard of it.
I have also never heard of anyone who went to fly an RJ so they could get super prepared for the military, not saying it hasn't happned, but I've certainly never heard of it.
Carl
10-14-2010, 03:23 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...s_to_regi.html
I talked to to of my buds last weekend. One was pre-United the other was pre-Continental and they didn't even know about it. I think it is a big deal. What am I missing?
Last edited by newKnow; 10-14-2010 at 03:47 PM.
10-14-2010, 03:35 PM
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Carl
10-14-2010, 03:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
There's not very much that I ever imply. I state things exactly as I mean them. We at the majors sold scope due to a few reasons...all of them inexcusable. For that we are half the problem. The other half is the RJ pilots who took the bait to work for food stamp wages and hope they are one of the lucky few to get an ever diminishing slot at the majors.
Carl
Carl
Assignment of blame to the mainline airline pilot is way more than 50%.
10-14-2010, 04:01 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 374
When I joined my regional airline (XJT) in 2004, I was one of the lowest time guys with 3000 hrs. That was the norm during those days. My prior 6 years in the industry flight instructing and flying night cargo meant nothing to the majors. Piston time could not even win an interview with any major airline. Trust me, I applied....I applied to 95 airliners/freight outfits around the globe. You really think I was going to turn my 121 job (which was the stepping stone to NWA/DAL) to avoid hurting your feelings? You got to be kidding yourself!
Stop harping at the regional guys about taking your job. You old folks have a lot of experience in the industry....but you guys aint saints. You guys single handedly signed scope away and took a 40% paycut. You guys created the enormous regional industry in this country. Had you guys not screwed up by signing scope away, I would have been a ten year DAL/NWA/CAL/UAL/LCC pilot by now. Don't blame me who flew at the regional level. I had to do that to make it to the majors. I was too old to do the military route and I did not have a rich mom/dad who was a Pan Am captain.
Now let the young blood (ex-regional pilots) help you/me fix what you guys screwed up.
Thank you.
10-14-2010, 04:11 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Thats not how it works all the time. During the peak of hiring, regionals hire pilots with very little time..same thing happened even with the majors before the age of regionals. (The new 1500 hr rule will hopefully change this shortly).
When I joined my regional airline (XJT) in 2004, I was one of the lowest time guys with 3000 hrs. That was the norm during those days. My prior 6 years in the industry flight instructing and flying night cargo meant nothing to the majors. Piston time could not even win an interview with any major airline. Trust me, I applied....I applied to 95 airliners/freight outfits around the globe. You really think I was going to turn my 121 job (which was the stepping stone to NWA/DAL) to avoid hurting your feelings? You got to be kidding yourself!
Stop harping at the regional guys about taking your job. You old folks have a lot of experience in the industry....but you guys aint saints. You guys single handedly signed scope away and took a 40% paycut. You guys created the enormous regional industry in this country. Had you guys not screwed up by signing scope away, I would have been a ten year DAL/NWA/CAL/UAL/LCC pilot by now. Don't blame me who flew at the regional level. I had to do that to make it to the majors. I was too old to do the military route and I did not have a rich mom/dad who was a Pan Am captain.
Now let the young blood (ex-regional pilots) help you/me fix what you guys screwed up.
Thank you.
When I joined my regional airline (XJT) in 2004, I was one of the lowest time guys with 3000 hrs. That was the norm during those days. My prior 6 years in the industry flight instructing and flying night cargo meant nothing to the majors. Piston time could not even win an interview with any major airline. Trust me, I applied....I applied to 95 airliners/freight outfits around the globe. You really think I was going to turn my 121 job (which was the stepping stone to NWA/DAL) to avoid hurting your feelings? You got to be kidding yourself!
Stop harping at the regional guys about taking your job. You old folks have a lot of experience in the industry....but you guys aint saints. You guys single handedly signed scope away and took a 40% paycut. You guys created the enormous regional industry in this country. Had you guys not screwed up by signing scope away, I would have been a ten year DAL/NWA/CAL/UAL/LCC pilot by now. Don't blame me who flew at the regional level. I had to do that to make it to the majors. I was too old to do the military route and I did not have a rich mom/dad who was a Pan Am captain.
Now let the young blood (ex-regional pilots) help you/me fix what you guys screwed up.
Thank you.
Carl
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