Originally Posted by acl65pilot

67 posts to 50K. Come on guys, FtB has an epic picture we need to put up. Lets get there before he needs to go to bed!

Originally Posted by DeadHead

I agree that the decision to relax scope was voted on by each specific mainline pilot group and never came from ALPA National.
However, the decision NOT to relax scope never came from ALPA National either.

Personally, I feel as though ALPA National should have made some basic, concrete guidelines a long time ago. One of these basic concrete guidelines should have been scope plain and simple. The entire discussion of an individual pilot group considering to relax scope in exchange.

Therein lies the problem with ALPA, ALPA National will take dues from any pilot group without question. ALPA National seems to run more like a business looking out for their own self interests as opposed to an organized labor group looking out for it's members.


ALPA serves under the guise of unity with strength in numbers, but ALPA National will sit by idly while one ALPA group is allowed to whipsaw another ALPA pilot group. While I am not saying ALPA National should be voting on our contract, I do believe that ALPA National needs some backbone principles to stand.

Originally Posted by Superdad

I am not sticking for any vision. You have got to stop blaming ALPA for all that ails this pilot group, because it is just not accurate. ALPA national has little to no control over what goes on at the local level, they offer resources and guidance. Sometimes their guidance is wrong, but it is up to each pilot group to make that decision, ALPA does not do it for you.

Delta pilots voted for every single scope concession that has taken place, ALPA did not force any of it. Lee Moak did not make those decisions for you. One of the first things I learned when I was an ALPA rep for my regional, is that you can say no to ALPA and they must abide by your decision. The national officers are not running the show, your pilot group is.

I want to get rid of all the RJ's just like you, but ALPA cannot do it for us, we must impose our will on our negotiators to get what we want. And if they bring us back something that we don't like, then we vote NO!

It really is that simple.

Originally Posted by dragon

While I'm not saying you're wrong, ALPA did the negotiating and then the sales job during the road shows to get folks to vote on the contract. If you factor in that most pilots at Delta vote yes because they either trust their union or can't be bothered enough to read/question things, then the logical conclusion is that ALPA knows that the membership will ratify whatever they are told to ratify.

If ALPA is representing both sides in the scope negotiations, then who gets screwed? Does the ALPA Pres get behind those that pay the dues or those that have the electoral votes to keep him in his very cushy lifestyle?

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Like most pilots you need to read and understand the RLA act. Much of what you suggest that ALPA national should do is illegal. That is why ALPA is a association not a union. You can tie contracts at different airlines to each other or national goals.

Originally Posted by JABDIP

How about it is this simple. Would you like the same lawyer that you hired representing you in a divorce that is also representing your wife. Now how does that feel. Same as ALPA represents Regionals and Mainline. To me a simple conflict of interest. It is all about the dues money and keep the masses in control so the money keeps on coming. I want my money going into a DELTA bank account not a national account that has many other interest before mine.

Originally Posted by DeadHead

As far as the legalities of RLA go, I cannot comment, but I would be remiss to think that at the very least set up two separate divisions of ALPA National.
Having a Mainline and Regional division within ALPA can keep either side focused on the contract needs of their respective divisional sides.
Mainline contract needs and Regional contract needs differ and often oppose one another.

While I am not deeply intimate with all the ins and outs of the RLA, I can't see it being illegal to exclude a specific work group from joining an organized labor group. I've definitely gone out on a limb with that statement, so I could be wrong, however allowing a pilot group access to ALPA while that group is whipsawing another group into contract submission is unconscienceable.
Granted it is difficult to make demands from a non-union group seeking representation, but I don't think it's too much to have certain basic expectations.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Yep, now that Alfa did said it, Yep Lee won, and now they are voting for VP's.

Many many rounds of voting. Rice dropped out, It was down to three and Lee won in the last round.

I am glad to see new blood at National. There is lots of work to do.
I will be curious to see what the committee reports bring back. (Like compensation)

It will be interesting to see how we move going forward. I suspect the message will change drastically.