Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-30-2010, 08:41 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
Aren't the FNWA flight attendants in SEA nicknamed "Gorillas in the Mist?" (as in the movie) I never get West of DFW it seems, so I don't really know. And what do you mean a painful SLI? They have smaller planes and don't fly International routes other than Mexico and Canada, and still have guys on furlough I believe. Arbitrators could see that.
09-30-2010, 09:02 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Let's see....
As a Former North Pilot, I'm having trouble keeping track of the many reasons why we are so poor at this whole "merge" thing. Let me see if I can get all of them:
1.) We call in sick too much.
2.) We don't single engine taxi enough.
3.) We leave too many APU"s running at the gate.
4.) We complain too much.
5.) We don't follow established procedures enough.
6.) We overfly MSP too much.
7.) We take all the good "South" flying.
8.) We move into all the good "South" bases.
9.) We leave you all the horrible bases to fly out of.
10.) "Our" flight attendants are mean to you and the customers.
11.) We are too distrustful of management.
12.) We are too distrustful of our union leaders.
13.) We are not patient enough in waiting for change (for anything).
14.) Our negotiators invented the term "super premium widebody flying"
These above reasons are all fine and dandy, but can someone tell me when I can stop being a North pilot, and when I become a Delta pilot?
When do I stop getting analyzed as a "North Pilot?"
Is it a point reached on the above infraction list? 17? 21?
Or, is it a certain point in time down the road? A date? 2015? 2020?
Like seriously, when do the two groups actually merge? I must say, I hope it is soon.
New K Now
As a Former North Pilot, I'm having trouble keeping track of the many reasons why we are so poor at this whole "merge" thing. Let me see if I can get all of them:
1.) We call in sick too much.
2.) We don't single engine taxi enough.
3.) We leave too many APU"s running at the gate.
4.) We complain too much.
5.) We don't follow established procedures enough.
6.) We overfly MSP too much.
7.) We take all the good "South" flying.
8.) We move into all the good "South" bases.
9.) We leave you all the horrible bases to fly out of.
10.) "Our" flight attendants are mean to you and the customers.
11.) We are too distrustful of management.
12.) We are too distrustful of our union leaders.
13.) We are not patient enough in waiting for change (for anything).
14.) Our negotiators invented the term "super premium widebody flying"
These above reasons are all fine and dandy, but can someone tell me when I can stop being a North pilot, and when I become a Delta pilot?
When do I stop getting analyzed as a "North Pilot?"
Is it a point reached on the above infraction list? 17? 21?
Or, is it a certain point in time down the road? A date? 2015? 2020?
Like seriously, when do the two groups actually merge? I must say, I hope it is soon.
New K Now
Did you hear that Southies? Now we're going to have bears.
09-30-2010, 09:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 233
Thanks for the response. It was a negative number and it was in the YTD column. I read it as being in the "Current" column so I read it as being taken out of my check every paycheck. I didn't realize right away that it was YTD.
09-30-2010, 09:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
Of course you will end up with a lot more retirement then the new hires you talk about because you received a large chunk of money to front load that account via the stock negotiated. A new hire will not get dime. Front loading 40k in a DC retirement plan is worth far more then the difference in DC ongoing funding. I would have preferred it was the same for everyone and it was in the first joint contract. Why the NWA negotiating team allowed the change I don't know. It all becomes equal in two years. The second joint contract had reductions in many areas including the first pay raise. I realize you will not be getting anything from the NWA pilot retirement plan but the funding requirement for that plan have been huge and have far exceeded what a former Delta pilot is getting in DC money since the merger.
I admit that it was the fNWA MEC that allowed newhires to fall into a c-scale, but how will we prevent such maneuvering from ALPA and management going forward with contract 2012? *Management has proven time and time again that it can move metal with other pilots (scope, joint ventures and codeshares) and now they've sustained their theories they can cut costs further by economically dividing the existing pilot group.
I've always been very skeptical of ALPA, not because of the LEC and support infrastructure, but because of the motivations to make it into National. *Phrases like, "We dont rock the boat at Delta", coming from MEC staff concerns me when we have 50% of our domestic flying outsourced (160-seat 737s being the largest concern) and a multitude of retirements where many professional pilots will be working second careers post retirement.
Sorry Sailing, I agree with most of your statements but Delta South pilots shrugging this off like it's not and hasn't happened will keep this two separate airlines for quite some time.*
FYI to everyone else who is tired of hearing me bring this up every month, Moak won't even act on a resolution to fix this. *The man is worthless to his word and has placed his personal agendas/ego ahead of what's best for Delta pilots. *Furthermore, his attempts at breaking the LECs into North and South will ensure a divided group for many years
09-30-2010, 09:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Sailing, as usual you have valid points. *However, a newhire wasn't here during the merger when the stocks were issued. *The stocks were not issued to compensate for inequities in the existing DC rate between North and South or the 180 fNWA pilots would've received another $15-20k to compensate (that doesn't even take into account the gains on that difference over twenty or thirty years). *This would be similar to me stating that I didn't get circa 2000 pay from Delta while I worked elsewhere. *What is relevant is the fact that you have pilots hired on the same same day, flying the same equipment under the same retirement (415k and 401k) but at different DC rates. What is bothersome to me is the fact that under ALPA we signed (I didn't) a contract creating a c-scale.*
I admit that it was the fNWA MEC that allowed newhires to fall into a c-scale, but how will we prevent such maneuvering from ALPA and management going forward with contract 2012? *Management has proven time and time again that it can move metal with other pilots (scope, joint ventures and codeshares) and now they've sustained their theories they can cut costs further by economically dividing the existing pilot group.
I've always been very skeptical of ALPA, not because of the LEC and support infrastructure, but because of the motivations to make it into National. *Phrases like, "We dont rock the boat at Delta", coming from MEC staff concerns me when we have 50% of our domestic flying outsourced (160-seat 737s being the largest concern) and a multitude of retirements where many professional pilots will be working second careers post retirement.
Sorry Sailing, I agree with most of your statements but Delta South pilots shrugging this off like it's not and hasn't happened will keep this two separate airlines for quite some time.*
FYI to everyone else who is tired of hearing me bring this up every month, Moak won't even act on a resolution to fix this. *The man is worthless to his word and has placed his personal agendas/ego ahead of what's best for Delta pilots. *Furthermore, his attempts at breaking the LECs into North and South will ensure a divided group for many years
I admit that it was the fNWA MEC that allowed newhires to fall into a c-scale, but how will we prevent such maneuvering from ALPA and management going forward with contract 2012? *Management has proven time and time again that it can move metal with other pilots (scope, joint ventures and codeshares) and now they've sustained their theories they can cut costs further by economically dividing the existing pilot group.
I've always been very skeptical of ALPA, not because of the LEC and support infrastructure, but because of the motivations to make it into National. *Phrases like, "We dont rock the boat at Delta", coming from MEC staff concerns me when we have 50% of our domestic flying outsourced (160-seat 737s being the largest concern) and a multitude of retirements where many professional pilots will be working second careers post retirement.
Sorry Sailing, I agree with most of your statements but Delta South pilots shrugging this off like it's not and hasn't happened will keep this two separate airlines for quite some time.*
FYI to everyone else who is tired of hearing me bring this up every month, Moak won't even act on a resolution to fix this. *The man is worthless to his word and has placed his personal agendas/ego ahead of what's best for Delta pilots. *Furthermore, his attempts at breaking the LECs into North and South will ensure a divided group for many years
But back to your issue, just so others on this board understand the DC issue:
NWA had a DC plan when the merger occurred.
DAL had a DC plan when the merger occurred.
The JCBA gave EVERY pilot on the list identical DC raises (1% in 2010, 1% in 2011, and 1% in 2012) to those DC plans. Then on 12/31/12, the NWA and DAL plans are harmonized by giving another 3% to the NWA side.
A DAL-S guy could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale, as he doesn't get that 3% raise on 12/31/12.
A DAL-N guy could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale because he's getting ZERO under the targeting plan. Sure, he has a pension, but what's that worth? And who's to say that's worth more at age 60 than your DC?
A DAL new hire could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale, because he got hired a short time after you did, but he didn't get merger equity.
And on, and on, and on...
09-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
TOGA, Yes, we are all tired of you bringing this up, with your own self-defined "c-scale". Everyone can find something in the contract that is c-scale to his particular demographic, if they look very hard.
But back to your issue, just so others on this board understand the DC issue:
NWA had a DC plan when the merger occurred.
DAL had a DC plan when the merger occurred.
The JCBA gave EVERY pilot on the list identical DC raises (1% in 2010, 1% in 2011, and 1% in 2012) to those DC plans. Then on 12/31/12, the NWA and DAL plans are harmonized by giving another 3% to the NWA side.
A DAL-S guy could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale, as he doesn't get that 3% raise on 12/31/12.
A DAL-N guy could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale because he's getting ZERO under the targeting plan. Sure, he has a pension, but what's that worth? And who's to say that's worth more at age 60 than your DC?
A DAL new hire could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale, because he got hired a short time after you did, but he didn't get merger equity.
And on, and on, and on...
But back to your issue, just so others on this board understand the DC issue:
NWA had a DC plan when the merger occurred.
DAL had a DC plan when the merger occurred.
The JCBA gave EVERY pilot on the list identical DC raises (1% in 2010, 1% in 2011, and 1% in 2012) to those DC plans. Then on 12/31/12, the NWA and DAL plans are harmonized by giving another 3% to the NWA side.
A DAL-S guy could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale, as he doesn't get that 3% raise on 12/31/12.
A DAL-N guy could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale because he's getting ZERO under the targeting plan. Sure, he has a pension, but what's that worth? And who's to say that's worth more at age 60 than your DC?
A DAL new hire could easily argue HE'S on a c-scale, because he got hired a short time after you did, but he didn't get merger equity.
And on, and on, and on...
What a joke.
09-30-2010, 09:54 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Nu,
Lots of reasons why we won't be one pilot group for some time. My reason is tied up with Moak writing a letter to the pilot group, after not hearing from him for two years, to only find out he wants a national ALPA pension and oayraise. My main grief with his Black Swan series is the MEC's complete ignorance in the fact that not all pilots are getting a 13% retirement benefit. Yes about five different retirement programs out there, but there are 180 fNWA pilots getting 7% DC and 2% 401k while newhires are getting 12% this year and 13% next year.
For reasons like this DAL is a job, no more special than the last one. Really hoping Lee gets the boot and DAL pilots get some meaningful representation by an organization with mainline interests at heart
At APA the union voted to change the policy to mirror ALPA in that the LECs vote for the MEC chairman, it was soundly defeated.
Time for regime change at a minimum and better yet an in-house union.
Lots of reasons why we won't be one pilot group for some time. My reason is tied up with Moak writing a letter to the pilot group, after not hearing from him for two years, to only find out he wants a national ALPA pension and oayraise. My main grief with his Black Swan series is the MEC's complete ignorance in the fact that not all pilots are getting a 13% retirement benefit. Yes about five different retirement programs out there, but there are 180 fNWA pilots getting 7% DC and 2% 401k while newhires are getting 12% this year and 13% next year.
For reasons like this DAL is a job, no more special than the last one. Really hoping Lee gets the boot and DAL pilots get some meaningful representation by an organization with mainline interests at heart
At APA the union voted to change the policy to mirror ALPA in that the LECs vote for the MEC chairman, it was soundly defeated.
Time for regime change at a minimum and better yet an in-house union.
I talked to someone rather in the know, and I do mean "in the know", and that was not brought up to anyones attention until the deal was done. Problem was I don't think there was a junior junior pilot in the mix to see it from a junior pilots pov.
To unravel it at that point meant, or now means, a lot of other interests groups would like their major issues addressed and fixed. They'd (both on DAL and NWA side) argue til their blue in the face that what happened to them is worse than the NWA junior pilots.
You could argue back and forth but like I've heard others "want theirs" until you convince everyone that the 3-4% DC for 180 pilots should occur without anything else occuring in the deal.
Maybe that could happen. Maybe we should try? I support any efforts to change it pre C2012.
To me, it would be unreal if that is not changed in C2012. Since many of you are on this site are FNWA JR pilots who are effected by this I'd be curious to hear what your LEC reps have said about it when it comes up to the next contract.
But lets be clear, it shouldn't have happened.
Power to us JR pilots! We're the backbone of the operati.... okay, maybe not, we're the "can" of the operation. Without us [to cover senior pilots sickations and miss commutes] this place would be a mess.
09-30-2010, 10:11 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
basically TOGA and all others, NWA new hires were given the DC contributions of the NWA pilots who had frozen pensions, right?
The inequity comes from the fact that the NWA new hires never had pensions in the first place so they should've had the DC plan of everyone else, such as DALS, that had no pensions, right?
And from what I know it wasn't brought to DALS merger guys attention until it was too late to address it without redoing the deal.
The inequity comes from the fact that the NWA new hires never had pensions in the first place so they should've had the DC plan of everyone else, such as DALS, that had no pensions, right?
And from what I know it wasn't brought to DALS merger guys attention until it was too late to address it without redoing the deal.
09-30-2010, 10:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,959
I don't think I would even follow a SLI with Alaska Airlines. I don't think anyone based east of MSP would ever have to worry about any Alaska pilots.
09-30-2010, 10:40 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
You know better than this... people tend to follow the big airplanes. How (of course that is assuming the big IF on thte merger in the first place) that SLI works out will be critical to our seniority progression over our careers.
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