nwaf16dude

Start with a call or email to your LEC reps. I talked to the Council 20 chair this morning and he really seemed to appreciate the call. We really need to raise a giant BS flag on this one.

Sink r8

Inasmuch as I'm sick of all this N/S stuff, an inasmuch as there is normally a bit of a negative "theme" to Carl's musings, I don't see anything in this latest discussion about flaps to suggest he's out of line, or sarcastic.

The more I fly with NW guys, the better I understand the rationale behind their actions, and their philosophy. From a big picture standpoint, I don't want us to go where they were. A lot of their actions seem to me to be driven by fear, and an intentionally paranoid environment (created by a hostile company culture).

But if you scrub out the negatives of their operational philosophy, I think they have a lot of good points to make WRT the details of our procedures. Some things definitely can be clarified.

I don't see anything wrong with the Captain calling for flap extension, but I would suggest they don't specify what to set. Since I'm starting engines (smarter IMO), I don't always see the salute. If the Captain were to say "set flaps, ready for taxi", or something like it, it would be fine with me. I don't want him to specify a setting, since it's not all Flaps 5, these days. But if he calls for it, I reference the T/O page, I set it, and he glances over... why not?

One good point made earlier, and that Carl doesn't seem to fully appreciate, is that these things are getting solved everyday by intelligent discussions in cross-pollinated fleets. There is nothing better. for reaching mutual understanding, than sitting in the same cockpit.

I've been flying with NW guys, and there really isn't much to it. We just get the stuff done, and talk about what we both agree would make it better. Real life "North-South" stuff is only about 5% as dramatic and heated as this virtual debate. And me move metal while doing it.

Either way, while I often disagree with Carl, and while I think he would be better served flying with South guys than arguing with us here, I don't think he said anything that was out-of-line in the flap discussion.

Xray678

I agree with you. But you can go too far. You can over checklist something. You can make procedures so safe that the operation cannot function. An example is the now adopted NWA procedure of having to autoland a CAT II landing. So now if a Delta airplane is not autoland capable, we have to divert? While a 27 year old kid who has been in the left seat of an RJ for 3 months can come on in and land? Are our pilots incapable of hand flying a landing in CAT II conditions?

Delta is the top of the heap. People don't come here hoping to move onward and upward. We can and do attract the best, most experianced pilots out there. At some point you have to trust them to be professional and not over control them. By it's very nature, airline pilots are operating in a very unsupervised world. As someone else said, SOPA will not prevent a careless pilot from making a mistake.

That said, I do get tired of hearing complaints about Delta's way of doing things. To listen to guys like Carl,, you would think Delta has a plane falling out of the sky every month. But that's not the case. Delta has been operating safe airline for a long, long time. Both ways of operating have proven to be safe. So why would you not want to go with the method that is more flexible? Flights ops can always move toward a more structured way of operating, but they will never go back.

The powers that be have adopted NWA here, Delta there. Trust them to do their jobs. If you really want a say in the way things are done, become a line check airman, build some time in that role and maybe you can be a lead, then chief. Then you will have some input into the way we do business.

This is just an anonymous internet forum. I would take anything I read here with a grain of salt. If someone really wants to say something and be taken more seriously, at least go to the DALPA forum where you can't hide behind a screename.

johnso29

FYI, we've been maunually landing the DC9 in CAT II conditions for years.

Plus, as an FO at DAL why can't I perform a takeoff in less then 1600 RVR? I could do it at NWA, but now I'm not good enough to do it as an FO at DAL?

Not trying to fight, just making a point.

Scoop

No,

This is a great procedure - think about it for a second. Just suppose someone with ill intent was already through security. Surely a requirement that said person exit and screen themselves would change their mind for the following reasons:

1. It is basically the honor system once you are through security, and so if you re-screen yourself you are by definition honorable.
2. If someone did actually have contraband surely would exit with it and hope to "sneak" it through security vice just leaving it in the lounge etc.

Bureaucracies at work are truly amazing to observe.

Scoop

Xray678

hey, I agree with you. That is a great example of somewhere I always thought Delta is too conservative.

nwaf16dude

We'd all be better served if we didn't take it personally when someone from the other pre-merger side makes a negative comment about the other side. I don't take it personally if someone says SOPA/SMAC was rigid. I didn't invent it, so why would I be offended? Open your mind, there actually might be a better way to do something than the way you've always been taught. Same applies to both sides, of course.

johnso29

Thank goodness for the TSA. They make me feel so safe. They're just so efficient.

johnso29

Yeah, I think it's silly. Kinda feels like an insult to me as an FO.

I'm actually ok with the CA NOT calling for flaps. I prefer to drop them once he says 'wave off received', then we both get the chance to double check them to the WDR. We rarely did a flaps 3 takeoff in the 320, but with the different W&B system we see them more often. I think that we get so used to flaps 1 takeoffs that the CA would pretty much always call for flaps 1, taxi clearance. By not doing it, I HAVE to look at the WDR to confirm the flaps setting.

I personally think it prevents me from setting the wrong flaps. We still confirm the proper flap setting just as much as we did at NWA, we just do it at different times. JMO.

hockeypilot44

I read the memo and the weekly flight update. I'm under the impression you can non-rev after a trip as long as you cleared security somewhere. The flight ops mentions a city where we are dropped off at the airplane inside of security. It mentions in that case, you would have to leave security. I'm going to go by the weekly flight update. You guys can thank the Delta pilots in ATL for this change. Two guys specifically.