Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-08-2010, 07:45 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Heyas NewK,
I think people underestimate the value of the flowdown as furlough prevention.
You're not only paying to train a DAL guy to fly a E175. You force a fully trained captain back to FO, and a fully trained FO out onto the street, wasting 2 full training events in addition to the one you use to get qualified.
Now multiply that by 20 a month.
Now work it in reverse when training starts back up.
You are causing a MAJOR logistical nightmare and training dollar sinkhole for the company..
And that's why it was so effective. A real financial incentive NOT to do it with real dollars attached to it.
Far more incentive than having to poke your on-staff labor attorney and telling him "we're going to furlough...come up with some force majure excuse and make it stick".
If I were a contract operator, no way...NO WAY would I want to be involved with a flow. It's a ticket to bankruptcy, and we've already seen what happened to Mesa.
Nu
I think people underestimate the value of the flowdown as furlough prevention.
You're not only paying to train a DAL guy to fly a E175. You force a fully trained captain back to FO, and a fully trained FO out onto the street, wasting 2 full training events in addition to the one you use to get qualified.
Now multiply that by 20 a month.
Now work it in reverse when training starts back up.
You are causing a MAJOR logistical nightmare and training dollar sinkhole for the company..
And that's why it was so effective. A real financial incentive NOT to do it with real dollars attached to it.
Far more incentive than having to poke your on-staff labor attorney and telling him "we're going to furlough...come up with some force majure excuse and make it stick".
If I were a contract operator, no way...NO WAY would I want to be involved with a flow. It's a ticket to bankruptcy, and we've already seen what happened to Mesa.
Nu
07-08-2010, 07:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
It's not matter if WE would be comfortable.
Any smart managament wouldn't allow it. You could burn millions in training expenses in a heartbeat. You'd have all your captain seats filled with disgrutled pilots who KNEW how to game the system. Plus you'd **** off all the 23 year old newbies that you hired for peanuts when they saw their quick upgrades disappear.
It'd be UGLY.
Nu
07-08-2010, 07:55 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
1) The value of the flow we agreed to has materially changed for the worse. (Think how that effects our PWA language and the protection we had versus what we now have)
2) Just because the flow not is less appealing to some does not mean that you just give it away. It has value, and the value is what we had for it prior to the sale.
07-08-2010, 07:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Nu
Yup it sure would be.
I sure doubt it will happen, (remember "Mainline Creep" from the BK court transcripts) but like NewK says, have us fly the EMB family till something else comes along.
But, how does that happen? We sold the company. But, I keep reading we still own the airplanes?
Interesting for sure.
Ferd
Yup it sure would be.
I sure doubt it will happen, (remember "Mainline Creep" from the BK court transcripts) but like NewK says, have us fly the EMB family till something else comes along.
But, how does that happen? We sold the company. But, I keep reading we still own the airplanes?
Interesting for sure.
Ferd
07-08-2010, 08:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
It's the "value" that we are giving up that will be dangled. What will be offered?
Don't get me wrong..........no scope deals.
Ferd
07-08-2010, 08:35 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Ferd;
Read the PWA, read the LOA's and realize the the PWA states if the FLOW, not up or down being canceled invokes said trigger and the LOA's state that the flow UP can be canceled and the flow down can remain. Two layers of protection there.
CPS and or Mesaba can cancel their flow up per the LOA's, but to cancel the flow down would require all parties to agree to this. So if they cancel the flow up, it does not mean that the flow down is gone. Degraded, yes, but still there.
The PWA states if the flow, and as I read it, that is up or down. So in effect these regionals have control over the 76 seat setback trigger.
Also of note, I have not seen an 8K on from TSH on the acquisition of CPS. So they probably have a condition of sale in the purchase agreement about this flow. The devil is in the detail, and I would assume that there are quite a few in the ASA as well has the purchase agreements of both of these carriers.
Read the PWA, read the LOA's and realize the the PWA states if the FLOW, not up or down being canceled invokes said trigger and the LOA's state that the flow UP can be canceled and the flow down can remain. Two layers of protection there.
CPS and or Mesaba can cancel their flow up per the LOA's, but to cancel the flow down would require all parties to agree to this. So if they cancel the flow up, it does not mean that the flow down is gone. Degraded, yes, but still there.
The PWA states if the flow, and as I read it, that is up or down. So in effect these regionals have control over the 76 seat setback trigger.
Also of note, I have not seen an 8K on from TSH on the acquisition of CPS. So they probably have a condition of sale in the purchase agreement about this flow. The devil is in the detail, and I would assume that there are quite a few in the ASA as well has the purchase agreements of both of these carriers.
07-08-2010, 08:58 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Hey Check and FTB,
Which is the expensive side?
Riu Palace or Riu Palace Macao in Punta Cana?
I've looked at both. Palace Macao is a little cheaper right now, but more expensive in Sept. Palace looks nicer to me, with access to the sister resorts. I don't think you get that with Palace Macao.
So which is the nicer of the two? It sounds like Check did one and FTB did the other, so I'm trying to get a review from you both. I'm leaning towards the Riu Palace.
Which is the expensive side?
Riu Palace or Riu Palace Macao in Punta Cana?
I've looked at both. Palace Macao is a little cheaper right now, but more expensive in Sept. Palace looks nicer to me, with access to the sister resorts. I don't think you get that with Palace Macao.
So which is the nicer of the two? It sounds like Check did one and FTB did the other, so I'm trying to get a review from you both. I'm leaning towards the Riu Palace.
07-08-2010, 09:12 AM
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
Johnso
check your PM's
check your PM's
07-08-2010, 09:27 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
07-08-2010, 09:33 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
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