Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-05-2010, 05:19 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Shiz,
I realize that you are using exaggerated numbers to make a point, but I believe you are missing another even more important point. Yes, I am sure that if the "pot of gold" were big enough the contract would sail through. But, the value of SCOPE to the company is a lot less than it used to be, so I don't think the company would ever come anywhere close to your above example. When NB FO's were making north of $150/hour with commensurate benefits and fuel was $30/barrel, yeah maybe, but not anymore. Why would the company offer us more in contracts plus ups than the value of possible SCOPE concessions?
Besides the whole "quality" issue which is a separate discussion I don't think DCI is that much more economical than mainline, if cheaper at all, when all costs are included. Maybe I am off the farm here but if DCI was so much cheaper where are all the branded RJ operators? With the ease of entry in this business, with airports and politicians bending over backwards trying to lure start-ups, with hundreds of furloughed pilots where are the standalone RJ operators? I keep hearing how expensive mainline is - and yet the only way RJ operations stay in business seem to be the fee for departure route. Why?
A few month ago there was a rumor going around about a 22% pay-raise for 100 seat scope relaxation. Does this even make sense? DAL supposedly offered to pay 12,000 pilots including top pay-scale wide-body Captains 22% more to save a few dollars an hour on a few hundred planes?
Maybe the company would want to open the door, so to speak on SCOPE, thinking, it could get the pay-rates back later, which wouldn't be too far fetched, but that is also another discussion.
Scoop
I realize that you are using exaggerated numbers to make a point, but I believe you are missing another even more important point. Yes, I am sure that if the "pot of gold" were big enough the contract would sail through. But, the value of SCOPE to the company is a lot less than it used to be, so I don't think the company would ever come anywhere close to your above example. When NB FO's were making north of $150/hour with commensurate benefits and fuel was $30/barrel, yeah maybe, but not anymore. Why would the company offer us more in contracts plus ups than the value of possible SCOPE concessions?
Besides the whole "quality" issue which is a separate discussion I don't think DCI is that much more economical than mainline, if cheaper at all, when all costs are included. Maybe I am off the farm here but if DCI was so much cheaper where are all the branded RJ operators? With the ease of entry in this business, with airports and politicians bending over backwards trying to lure start-ups, with hundreds of furloughed pilots where are the standalone RJ operators? I keep hearing how expensive mainline is - and yet the only way RJ operations stay in business seem to be the fee for departure route. Why?
A few month ago there was a rumor going around about a 22% pay-raise for 100 seat scope relaxation. Does this even make sense? DAL supposedly offered to pay 12,000 pilots including top pay-scale wide-body Captains 22% more to save a few dollars an hour on a few hundred planes?
Maybe the company would want to open the door, so to speak on SCOPE, thinking, it could get the pay-rates back later, which wouldn't be too far fetched, but that is also another discussion.
Scoop
Just wanted to make a quick point about fuel. - Fuel (as a variable cost) is now effectively removed. We no longer need to think: " Oh but fuel is $78/barrel, there is no way we can ask for that." Everyone is hedging - and hedging at almost the same level. Fuel is back to being a relatively fixed cost.
I agree with everything else.
07-05-2010, 05:26 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Looks like less Rome Layovers.
ROME, July 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Alitalia, Italy's leading airline, today joined the Air France-KLM Group (OTC:AFLYY.ob - News) and Delta Air Lines as a member of the airline industry's leading trans-Atlantic joint venture. Launched in April 2009, the multi-party agreement created a single, coordinated network for customers flying across the Atlantic, allowing the member airlines to share revenues and costs on their trans-Atlantic routes.
Through the four-way joint venture, passengers have convenient access to the world's largest trans-Atlantic network, which offers almost 250 flights and approximately 55,000 seats each day, now including 20 daily trans-Atlantic flights to 5 U.S. destinations from Rome and Milan Malpensa airports. *With Alitalia's addition, the joint venture represents approximately 26 percent of total trans-Atlantic capacity, with annual revenues estimated at more than $10 billion USD. *
Rome joins Amsterdam, Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis, New York-JFK and Paris-CDG as the core hubs of the joint venture, with additional trans-Atlantic service from Cincinnati, Milan Malpensa, Memphis and Salt Lake City. *Wherever traffic rights permit, the airlines offer customers codeshare service between the United States and the European Union, and in many cases beyond, creating one network for seamless airline-to-airline connections between points in North America and the European Union.
The joint venture's geographic scope includes all flights between North America and Europe, between Amsterdam and India and between North America and Tahiti.
"Today marks an important milestone in Alitalia's development plan," said Alitalia's CEO Rocco Sabelli. "Trans-Atlantic traffic is the most strategic and competitive marketplace. We are proud to be partnering with the world's leading airlines in a joint venture which the whole industry looks at as the benchmark. Such an achievement highlights the valuable results obtained so far by Alitalia, and further opens-up opportunities for our industrial and commercial growth."
"Delta's partnership with Europe's leading airlines has been a great success and has enabled us to add new destinations and convenience for customers across the United States and Europe," said Delta CEO Richard Anderson. *"The addition of Alitalia to our joint venture will further bolster our ability to optimize resources, protect revenues and provide more benefits for our employees and shareholders."
"The trans-Atlantic joint venture has been strengthened by the arrival of Alitalia, which adds the Italian market, the third biggest in Europe, to the JV and also gives it access to the Rome-Fiumicino hub," said Air France-KLM CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon. "The Italian airline, a SkyTeam member, is a strategic partner of Air France-KLM with which it already has joint venture agreements on its Italy-France and Italy-Netherlands routes. It is therefore natural that this successful partnership should continue with Alitalia's participation in the trans-Atlantic JV."
"The inclusion of Alitalia is an important step for the joint venture and will strengthen the position of the other JV partners in the very important Italian market," said KLM President and CEO Peter Hartman. "Our customers can now choose between multiple gateways in the U.S. as well as in Europe, via Amsterdam Schiphol, Paris Charles de Gaulle and Rome Fiumicino."
Governance of the joint venture will be equally shared between Alitalia, the Air France-KLM Group and Delta. Alitalia representatives will immediately join the joint venture's 11 working groups responsible for implementing and managing the agreement in the areas of network, revenue management, sales, product, frequent flyer, advertising/brand, cargo, operations, information technology, communications and finance. Alitalia also will be included in all joint venture initiatives, including joint sales contracts, which launched in January 2009.
Alitalia's addition to the joint venture is effective April 1, 2010 as part of a long-term agreement effective until at least March 31, 2022.
The long history of cooperation among Air France, KLM and Delta dates to 1997, when KLM signed a joint venture agreement with Northwest Airlines. *Delta, which merged with Northwest in 2008, signed its own joint venture agreement with Air France in 2007 following eight years of close trans-Atlantic cooperation. In 2009, both joint ventures were combined into one following the Delta-Northwest and Air France-KLM mergers.
The alliance of the four airlines, which is enabled by trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity granted by the U.S. and European governments, has delivered a number of benefits to consumers over the last decade. *Dozens of new routes have been created as a result of the airlines' cooperation, including Delta's first service to London-Heathrow from Atlanta, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Detroit and New York-JFK. New nonstop service has also been launched between mid-sized cities such as Portland, Ore. and Amsterdam; Pittsburgh and Paris; and Salt Lake City and Paris.
Key facts and figures on the expanded joint venture
Nearly 250 daily trans-Atlantic flights
Almost 500 destinations in Europe and in North America
Annual revenues estimated at more than US$10 billion
More than 100,000 employees at Air France KLM
More than 70,000 employees at Delta
More than 14,000 employees at Alitalia
Through the four-way joint venture, passengers have convenient access to the world's largest trans-Atlantic network, which offers almost 250 flights and approximately 55,000 seats each day, now including 20 daily trans-Atlantic flights to 5 U.S. destinations from Rome and Milan Malpensa airports. *With Alitalia's addition, the joint venture represents approximately 26 percent of total trans-Atlantic capacity, with annual revenues estimated at more than $10 billion USD. *
Rome joins Amsterdam, Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis, New York-JFK and Paris-CDG as the core hubs of the joint venture, with additional trans-Atlantic service from Cincinnati, Milan Malpensa, Memphis and Salt Lake City. *Wherever traffic rights permit, the airlines offer customers codeshare service between the United States and the European Union, and in many cases beyond, creating one network for seamless airline-to-airline connections between points in North America and the European Union.
The joint venture's geographic scope includes all flights between North America and Europe, between Amsterdam and India and between North America and Tahiti.
"Today marks an important milestone in Alitalia's development plan," said Alitalia's CEO Rocco Sabelli. "Trans-Atlantic traffic is the most strategic and competitive marketplace. We are proud to be partnering with the world's leading airlines in a joint venture which the whole industry looks at as the benchmark. Such an achievement highlights the valuable results obtained so far by Alitalia, and further opens-up opportunities for our industrial and commercial growth."
"Delta's partnership with Europe's leading airlines has been a great success and has enabled us to add new destinations and convenience for customers across the United States and Europe," said Delta CEO Richard Anderson. *"The addition of Alitalia to our joint venture will further bolster our ability to optimize resources, protect revenues and provide more benefits for our employees and shareholders."
"The trans-Atlantic joint venture has been strengthened by the arrival of Alitalia, which adds the Italian market, the third biggest in Europe, to the JV and also gives it access to the Rome-Fiumicino hub," said Air France-KLM CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon. "The Italian airline, a SkyTeam member, is a strategic partner of Air France-KLM with which it already has joint venture agreements on its Italy-France and Italy-Netherlands routes. It is therefore natural that this successful partnership should continue with Alitalia's participation in the trans-Atlantic JV."
"The inclusion of Alitalia is an important step for the joint venture and will strengthen the position of the other JV partners in the very important Italian market," said KLM President and CEO Peter Hartman. "Our customers can now choose between multiple gateways in the U.S. as well as in Europe, via Amsterdam Schiphol, Paris Charles de Gaulle and Rome Fiumicino."
Governance of the joint venture will be equally shared between Alitalia, the Air France-KLM Group and Delta. Alitalia representatives will immediately join the joint venture's 11 working groups responsible for implementing and managing the agreement in the areas of network, revenue management, sales, product, frequent flyer, advertising/brand, cargo, operations, information technology, communications and finance. Alitalia also will be included in all joint venture initiatives, including joint sales contracts, which launched in January 2009.
Alitalia's addition to the joint venture is effective April 1, 2010 as part of a long-term agreement effective until at least March 31, 2022.
The long history of cooperation among Air France, KLM and Delta dates to 1997, when KLM signed a joint venture agreement with Northwest Airlines. *Delta, which merged with Northwest in 2008, signed its own joint venture agreement with Air France in 2007 following eight years of close trans-Atlantic cooperation. In 2009, both joint ventures were combined into one following the Delta-Northwest and Air France-KLM mergers.
The alliance of the four airlines, which is enabled by trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity granted by the U.S. and European governments, has delivered a number of benefits to consumers over the last decade. *Dozens of new routes have been created as a result of the airlines' cooperation, including Delta's first service to London-Heathrow from Atlanta, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Detroit and New York-JFK. New nonstop service has also been launched between mid-sized cities such as Portland, Ore. and Amsterdam; Pittsburgh and Paris; and Salt Lake City and Paris.
Key facts and figures on the expanded joint venture
Nearly 250 daily trans-Atlantic flights
Almost 500 destinations in Europe and in North America
Annual revenues estimated at more than US$10 billion
More than 100,000 employees at Air France KLM
More than 70,000 employees at Delta
More than 14,000 employees at Alitalia
07-05-2010, 06:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Last edited by satchip; 07-05-2010 at 06:06 AM. Reason: Spelling
07-05-2010, 06:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Posts: 917
07-05-2010, 06:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Position: 320B
Posts: 781
Actually, what Buzz said was:
Shiz, I agree completely. Its an apples vs. oranges argument. The fDAL guys will vote for full restoration of C2K plus inflation with the DC in lieu of moving the scope. Because? They want their contract back. The fNWA guys have a new contract and didn't lose that pay nor the retirement/DC. I'm not endorsing either position. But I can see a battle on this. Nobody wants the scope to remain trending as it has. Everybody on the south side wants to regain lost pay and benefits yet regain some scope. The northies want to regain scope. Should be interesting.
07-05-2010, 06:31 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
deleted.......
Last edited by forgot to bid; 07-05-2010 at 06:47 AM.
07-05-2010, 06:43 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
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Posts: 13,088
Anybody have any good suggestions for a tropical getaway? Looking for an all inclusive resort for the wife and I, preferably one that will serve me drinks while I lay on a beach chair. 
07-05-2010, 06:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
Satch/FTB,
Respectfully, I believe that you guys are misunderstanding the post. He was referring to Buzz's post, and was referencing "pre-bankruptcy/post-bankruptcy" pay rates, not "pre-merger/post-merger".
Easily confused, although I might be the one confused this early on a Monday morning.
Fly safe,
GJ
Respectfully, I believe that you guys are misunderstanding the post. He was referring to Buzz's post, and was referencing "pre-bankruptcy/post-bankruptcy" pay rates, not "pre-merger/post-merger".
Easily confused, although I might be the one confused this early on a Monday morning.
Fly safe,
GJ
07-05-2010, 06:45 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Satch/FTB,
Respectfully, I believe that you guys are misunderstanding the post. He was referring to Buzz's post, and was referencing "pre-bankruptcy/post-bankruptcy" pay rates, not "pre-merger/post-merger".
Easily confused, although I might be the one confused this early on a Monday morning.
Fly safe,
GJ
Respectfully, I believe that you guys are misunderstanding the post. He was referring to Buzz's post, and was referencing "pre-bankruptcy/post-bankruptcy" pay rates, not "pre-merger/post-merger".
Easily confused, although I might be the one confused this early on a Monday morning.
Fly safe,
GJ
07-05-2010, 06:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
FTB,
You are referencing the post bankruptcy contract figures whereas Roadie is referencing the pre-bankruptcy rates. Again, Buzz was saying that fNWA didn't lose any pay or retirement and the fDAL pilots lost a large amount from C2K. I think that the confusion lies in the higher payrates for fNWA equipment due to the merger contract but these rates are still significantly lower than our pre-bk contract.
Not sure if I am making any sense..... oh-well.....
You are referencing the post bankruptcy contract figures whereas Roadie is referencing the pre-bankruptcy rates. Again, Buzz was saying that fNWA didn't lose any pay or retirement and the fDAL pilots lost a large amount from C2K. I think that the confusion lies in the higher payrates for fNWA equipment due to the merger contract but these rates are still significantly lower than our pre-bk contract.
Not sure if I am making any sense..... oh-well.....
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