DAL 88 Driver

Thank you! I've been trying to get this across for several years... but have felt like it is an uphill battle since so many other Captains are insisting that the beacon is turned on as soon as the door is closed.

A couple of other significant issues with it...

1. It's a safety issue. We train our ground crews that the beacon means the aircraft is either about to move or start an engine. Turning the beacon on when neither of those things are about to happen is "the boy who cried wolf" and conditions our ground crews to ignore the beacon. Somebody's gonna get hurt or worse one of these days because of this.

2. In a hub, we can misconnect bags. When we block out and then sit there for 20 minutes or an hour or whatever... as far as the baggage cart drivers know (on the monitors they have on their tugs), that flight is GONE (as in no longer there). If they are speeding towards your gate from several concourses away to try and bring late connecting bags and suddenly see that the flight is already gone... well, they're going to move on to something else. Not many things make our customers more angry than getting to their destination without their checked bags.

BTW, I completely agree that we should be paid when we are in the cockpit and responsible for our airplane and passengers. I actually think we should be paid from the minute we sign in for a trip! But violating FOM policy is not the way to do it, IMO.

Okay... off my soapbox!! (Thankfully, this is not as much of a problem on the DC-9 as our beacon is not tied to the out time.)

acl65pilot

Johnso;
It is a moving target.

Here is the PWA Language:

22D 2
On or before the first day of February, May, August and November, the Company will
post, at each base, a six month forecast of pilot requirements for each position at each
base.
Exception: When the Company posts an advance entitlement or displacement bid with an
effective date more than 210 days from date of posting, the Company will concurrently
publish a 12 month forecast of pilot requirements for each position at each base.

22D 3:
An advance entitlement or displacement bid posting will include a forecast of pilot
staffing by category at the end of the conversion window.

acl65pilot

If you want the PBS min staffing formula:

22 C is where it is. Get the number plug em in and there ya go.

IMHO looking at min staffing per seat and maybe arriving at a new metric as well as min RSV coverage parameters is something that needs to be done. A few changes and the ability to improve ones live increases exponentially.

acl65pilot

DAL88;
Quite true. I want to be paid from when the door closes and we need to do that, but our pay needs to be redefined to state door closed and brakes released, not block out. It is a slight change but it will allow us to be on the clock and still blocked in to help with absolute time on parts, the three hour rule and many other time critical issue like the ones you have stated.

How about a e-mail to your new reps.

forgot to bid

A) I said it was a wash for the pilots. I never said the pilots should've thrown the beacon either.

B) Can the DALS FA's do anything about how they're paid right now? No. Can a unionized FA group fight for a system that ensures their paid while working a flight like I described, yes- if they want. And they just might.

C) Therefore, if DAL wants the FA's not to unionize, they better improve a system that encourages it.

On that flight event I was talking about the duty pilot and dispatcher said the 3 hr rule started when the door was closed and not when the beacon was on. Acars was not the basis, and that makes sense. I don't know how you enforce it like that but it'd keep the crappy airlines from popping a door open on the taxiway, registering a quick IN time and then claiming they are in compliance with the rule.

And that would be the constructive way to handle it.

Still, imho the beacon should be what the beacon is for - a warning that the plane is moving - and the door closing should register the out time. If you want to figure out whats going on, on the line, then you need to eliminate variables and thus put OUT times on the door and pay when the airplane senses motion and not at the whim of an individual pilot.

We do everything we can to eliminate variables, such as do pilots or dispatchers order gas for the planes?, so the more we eliminate the better. If [they] think they can count on pilots to tell the truth then their mistaken, its not going to happen.

forgot to bid

I don't see boob, underboob, overboob, sideboob, butt, or the like, but for crying out loud somebody please please find something here to delete this post! How about David Hasselhoff naked with a dog in his lap, is that against the TOS!?!!!

acl65pilot

Well the direction from the Memo states to stay at the gate in JFK until directed to request pushback to remain in the three hr window. I would assume the door would close, but they may leave it open.

I see your point, either way do not block out.

forgot to bid

How is our OUT time registered for the gate agents btw? On our ACARS or can they pick up the phone and call and say "door's closed" and thus be off liability. I mean nobody ever asks "why were you late?" to me, but it'd be interesting to tell them "oh, because the FA's are lost in the back because they claim they never fly the 88 and therefore it took 5 minutes before they closed the door and said we're ready to push..."

See, unaccounted for variables.

acl65pilot

No, that is just plan disturbing. As it states, I saw it and I cannot "unsee" it.

Thanks for destroying my Friday Night.

forgot to bid

I do vaguely remember that... but, evidently duty pilot and dispatch said 3 hrs, might need to be re-defined, again. Or like you said, the door never closes.

The 3 hr rule should be 4 hr at a class B.