Current book and the memo combine to fully preserve the 2AM deadline to check your schedule on day one. Since you then need 10 hours of rest from that point, noon was the soonest the company could "dictate" anything. Noon wasn't a gift by the company via memo. Rather, it was the soonest legal report time we could accept unless they TOTALLY shredded the contract. As it ended up, they only went for a partial shredding. But either way, nothing before noon on day one was the reality regardless. 10 AM was the earliest theoretical report that would be legal.

So we gave them 10AM.

The memo did impose the unilateral elimination of the 3 hours prior acknowledgement, which was the fulcrum of this issue since that didn't mesh with the 10 hours prospective rest. But 5am went to noon and we gave them a concession back to 10am to fund other things when we had noon locked down.


If there was no 117 and we were stuck with 5am and suddenly reached a TA where it got shifted to 10am then yes, that would be awesome. But we had noon locked down already. They couldn't make it any sooner. We helped them find a way sooner to provide relief for them, and then used some of that relief to fund other things.

The 2 hour long call response outrage was for long call, not for first day report. The 3 hour prior acknowledgement issue technically did apply to both, but first day was a win and no one was outraged by that. They still had to have whatever they were going to give you on your schedule by 3pm the day prior and you could acknowledge if you chose to. The 2 hour leash from the fantasy memo was 24/7 while on long call and it unilaterally erased the long standing 9 hour blackout period we'd always had.

So we agreed to a 3 hour leash.

I'll read the language when and if we get it, but I really don't see any other way we can have a 13 hour LC without a 3 hour call back leash. That is a massive concession, as is going from noon to 10am on day one. Two big concessions to solve both 3 hour prior issues for the company, and we used those concessions on reserves to fund other things while providing relief to the company for the badly needed 3 hour prior issues.

One of my experiences in the JS a few months back on the out leg (evening flight):

FO was on his 2nd of 3 consecutive CDOs. He mentioned they wipe him out....didn't remember driving home that morning.

turtle heading

(verb – present participle) The act of experiencing the summit of a crusty turd protruding from your sphincter (a turtle head); to really need a crap. Also known as touching cloth.

Onlooker: "Why are you walking so strangely?"
Protagonist: "I'm turtle-heading, if I don't find a toilet soon I'm going to purge all over my pants."

Magic Carpet Ride

To line the bowl of an airplane lavatory with TP so as to reduce the chance of leaving difficult to remove and incriminating fecal skid marks that are produced in a vacuum extraction flushing method.

"It might be smart to employ the magic carpet ride so that if the hot Milf in 2B is waiting to use this porta potty in the sky, I don't look like a tool."

Are you guys getting this? This is typical. For every one guy who gushes about how great CDO's are (because he gets to be home all day, every day and has convinced himself he doesn't need that much sleep), there are 100 with stories just like this one. This is one of the worst safety issues I've seen in my career... and it's being thrust upon us by the people who are supposed to be representing us and have as their motto, "schedule with safety." UNSAT. :mad:

Just like every other contract TA though, guys will look at (section 3) first, and say.. "WOW, look at the money!" ... and that makes it OK.

The "schedule with safety" moniker is lost on me with this one too....

Actually in a way, yes. If they don't have anything for you by noon on your last day, you can ask to be released. If the next day is a golden day which it is 2 or 3 times a month anyway, its an automatic approval.

Perhaps there is room in there to find bargaining credits to apply to more deserving local pilots though. I'd actually almost second that resolution just to see it play out. :cool:

Since your active contempt for commuters is clouding your creative math in counting days off, let's just go nuts with it, shall we:

We have very, very few reports at 1am. Or 2am. Or 3 am. Or 4am. So the vast majority of reserves and line holders always start off with a quarter day off almost every day. With 4 blocks of work per month, that's an extra day off! I wonder if the company knows this? If we agree with this interpretation, we can reduce min days off by one for almost every pilot and still be in compliance with the contract! Don't want those pesky pilots getting free days off now, do we?

Then, since most release times occur at or before 8PM, that's another quarter day off per trip/reserve period. So we can reduce days off by 2 for most pilots. In fact, let's take every hour prior to report on day one, and every hour after release on the last day, and add up those total hours then divide that by 24 and that is the amount of extra work days we owe the company.

You still serious about this Shirley?

It would pay 10:30 under the new TA.

It's not a proffer, but it's not yours unless you acknowledge. If you acknowledged via I crew or answer a call from Scheds it will be yours. If you do nothing- even though they may call/CNO you a bunch, they will eventually take it off your line. Most Scheds only leave it on your line a few minutes, but lately have had a few that leave it awhile.

MEC Alert just came out:



The MEC will meet in special session May 21-May 22, beginning at 9AM each day, to consider LOA 14-01 concerning FAR 117 and changes to the Pilot Working Agreement.

The meeting will take place at the airport Marriott in Atlanta, 4711 Best Road, College Park, GA 30337.

The MEC will conduct the meeting in open session, and pilots are encouraged to attend.

If I use a normal personal drop on a trip, can I put in a white or green slip for that day in the future if my schedule changes?

Thanks for the post. It was very informative over all. Many questions still remain however.

As for this part of your post, I still don't see how you can not call them back for 10 hours, yet still be legal for an assignment that reports in 3 hours when you will need 10 hours prospective rest from the point that you acknowledged/knew about the assignment.

For example, you go on long call at midnight. First 2 hours nothing. At 2am however, they give you something that reports 13 hours later at 15:00. If you don't check your schedule and acknowledge or call back between 2am and 5am, how are you legal to do that trip?

A 10 hour leash would mean a 20 hour long call. It seems like someone is trying to sell the TA by redefining what "leash" means, and confusing prospective with retroactive in order to do it.

I still don't see how a 13 hour long call means anything other than a 3 hour call back leash in order to be FAR legal in getting your 10 hours prospective rest.

+1

Probably how the vast majority of us feel. I also thought DPA was done but no memrat and I sincerely believe we will have a representation vote prior to C2015. When I asked my reps months ago about split duty I knew it was a done deal, "Guys want to fly them!" was the response. GMAFB! Yes that's #1 on everybody's list.

It is an embarrassment even agreeing to these in a TA with Delta earning more money than at anytime in its history. Truly amazing. I'm sure the company is shaking in their boots at the thought of Sec. 6 just around the corner.

Is there something that prevents them from making this a slit duty and DH you home first flight in the morning? Just asking as I believe this was the OP's concern.

These one leg out at night and one leg back in the morning have been a staple for me. I have never seen anything less than 9:00 hrs w a deadhead leg and 10:30 with no DH. It will be a huge loss for those of us that fly a lot of them and a huge WIN for the company. Between that and the safety aspect, it's a NO. And what's with the pay no credit? How did that even get in there?? Send it back.

Also known as Prairie Dogging. :D

Yea, you'll be home all day......completely drained and too tired to enjoy it.

My concern is that it sets a precedent for the company wanting more pay no credit flying. Would if they propose in mediation having pay no credit for all back side of the clock flying and justify that to the NMB by using our productivity numbers. Big loss of jobs.

Same day or less then 12 hours to report is a proffer. If you don't want the trip then don't acknowledge it.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...onfused002.gif

If there is no memory rat on this TA and anything goes awry with it down the line, anything, and the DPA gets a shot in the arm that will outdo any pre movie advertising.

It's either spend the money now on a memory rat or spend the money later fighting the DPA. I'm curious what their move will be.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...kb6de90d8-k6Fg

A) I want to go. Can I get there after 9? Are these things open to drop ins?

B) Can we see the language? Is that out yet and I missed it?

You can come in and out any time.
If you come in late though, you have to flash the shocker.

Ah...got it thanks. By the way...you Space Shuttle guys sure do have an interesting sense of humor. See ya in the crew room. Cheers H

I would assume this was vetted with the FAA. If so you need only check your schedule every 10 hours. If you live a hour from the airport and know your going to make any trip given then you would only have to check every 12 hours.

Gloop... We never had a 1200 first day.... It was part of the same bullsh!& SD memo that we all agreed was invalid. We can't claim that "we had a 1200 first day" unless we also want to claim that the SD reserve acknowledgement is also valid. I do NOT believe ANY part of that memo to be valid, so therefore I cannot logic into any piece of it.

WRT the 13 callout.... A rep explained to me that it will be handled just like the present day WS system. If you get a WS greater than 12:00 from report, it is yours, whether you acknowledge it or not, reserve will work the same way...

If you're on reserve and want to go to bed at 9pm... Check DBMS at 2100. Wake up as late as 0700 (for a 10:00 sleep) and check DBMS, you could have a show NO earlier than 1000.

We have a "9:00" leash under the present PWA (memo notwithstanding); this will make it a "10:00" leash.

I see that as an improvement.

All correct as explained to me.

So.... 717 parking lines have been spotted on the ground in this place called San Diego. I dont see it on the 717 map. I dont see it in Gawga. the Florida Panhandle. Alabama. Missisippi. Arkansas. Illinois. New Jersey. South Carolina. Tennessee. Southeast Texas.

Where is this place?

Filler......

Of course we did, memo, or no memo. The previous rules had loose interpretations of rest and duty. You had a responsibility to check your schedule NET 1500 on your last X-day, and could be assigned flying as early as 5AM, I believe.

The new rules made it clear that if you had a responsibility to check your schedule on an X-day, then it was not rest. Ergo, if you couldn't legally be compelled to check your schedule while on rest (which makes perfect sense), then your 12-hour leash would start at 0001 on your first X-day.

That being said, this isn't the area where the new TA has the potential to be a significant setback in rotation construction, and most likely manning. There are bigger issues in this TA.

filler....

Or 7:30 if it's one of these CDOs?


FWIW, I did these back in my turboprop commuter days. They were awful. Always went to the reserves. As a new CA on reserve, I got 2 or 3 in a row, don't remember which. After coming in that morning, I called scheduling and told them that if they gave me another one tonight I wouldn't be doing it due to fatigue. We got in a little dust up over them saying I couldn't say I'd be fatigued 10 or 12 or however many hours it was to a potential sign-in. I said, "I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm telling you that I cannot, will-not do another one of these things tonight, period. Call whichever of my bosses you like, but I'm not doing it again."

I never heard anymore about it. Got off reserve and don't know if the "stand-ups" as we called them, stayed around.

I'll read the language, but I'm pretty shocked we are entertaining this. I am a bit confused as to why we are giving anything that could be considered a concession in our current environment. I'd just assume let it play out and file the grievance over the PDs.

Any further rumors on this?

17 to 20 percent fuel burn disadvantage to other airframes. There is a reason it was a flop. Never going to happen.

At the mentioned price what's the break even in years of operation on fuel costs ? That's about an 80% saving on the cost of a large WB. That buys an awful lot of gas. I could see these as a bridge WB for lift now until RFP acft show up in force. RA made money operating the DC9 long past any other carrier. Paid for aircraft give you a lot of flexibility.

We flip flops here. :D




Get it? See what I did? We take flops and flip them for cash flow. See Atlanta terminals A, B and C for details.

I've talked to several people since we flew together, no one has heard the rumor.

But, we are on the leading edge here at APC L&G :D

Ferd

Pineapple has commuter issues? I've never heard that.....what ya talking about Louis:D

RA said he does not like used WBs, think and remember the DC 10-30s. No, don't think so.

Good point......Debbie Downer

What have you heard about the new -300 crew rest bunk?

I am struggling to see the problem. I know that greenslips are pay no credit. Are greenslips evil in that they distort our productivity numbers? You are a valued contributor to this forum so I thank you for your postings. Would you consider posting an example with numbers that would illuminate further your concerns?

Our "productivity" is getting out of control.
It costs jobs and it eliminates family and leisure time.

Every time we allow more flying for pay and no credit it just continues our steady march toward no limits at all on the number of hours people can fly in a month.
This TA apparently is going to go almost all the way.

Reference Donatelli's bullet point:
· Adopts FAR FDP limits for actual operations.

That would seem to suggest that we've pretty much given up on any notion of limiting the amount of flying an individual pilot can perform in a month. If its legal under the FAR FDP limit then we can do it. No more contractual limits.

I think that's a horrible philosophy for our union to adopt. I don't want to work 99 hours. I want time off as well as more money. I would much rather have an old fashioned "cap" and then progress to the next higher paying seat that much faster to make my money.
But I'm apparently in the minority.

If every widebody captain was capped at 75 hours just think how many more widebody captains we would need. And so on down the list.