Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-30-2010, 07:38 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Sailing, yep should have qualified my request. Thanks again for the pizza BTW.
05-30-2010, 07:40 AM
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Position: Nice while it lasted
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Since we're talking about training, why do we get paid less than the time it takes to complete a CD or for that matter, a sim period. We get 3:15 per day in training but the sims are scheduled for 4:00 with a 1:30 brief and a debrief? In other words, why are we working for free?
At NWA we got 2+40 per day. The rationale was that spending a full month in training resulted in 80 hrs pay. Probably the same type of reasoning here, but you would have to ask a Negotiating Committee member why they settled on that number.
05-30-2010, 07:42 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Since we're talking about training, why do we get paid less than the time it takes to complete a CD or for that matter, a sim period. We get 3:15 per day in training but the sims are scheduled for 4:00 with a 1:30 brief and a debrief? In other words, why are we working for free?
Commuting so I don't have my contract with me or I'd look it up.
Thanks
05-30-2010, 08:25 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Because it's in the contract.
At NWA we got 2+40 per day. The rationale was that spending a full month in training resulted in 80 hrs pay. Probably the same type of reasoning here, but you would have to ask a Negotiating Committee member why they settled on that number.
At NWA we got 2+40 per day. The rationale was that spending a full month in training resulted in 80 hrs pay. Probably the same type of reasoning here, but you would have to ask a Negotiating Committee member why they settled on that number.
05-30-2010, 09:00 AM
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Posts: 19,574
05-30-2010, 09:06 AM
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Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
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anyone else have trouble getting to the DALPA MEC forums?
05-30-2010, 09:47 AM
Can't abide NAI
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Saving it ....
05-30-2010, 10:07 AM
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05-30-2010, 10:26 AM
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Posts: 1,619
Totally disagree with this.
Documenting a pattern of contract abuse, no matter what the issue, is very important in any grievance cases that occur down the road.
Say the company is too slack on running the PCS runs right on time. Starts out as 0700, then 0710, then 0730. Pretty soon, there's no schedule at all.
FINALLY someone decides to grieve it, and naturally the company says "well, what's the problem? You never complained before" (there's no record, because it was "just worked out with scheduling" on an individual basis.
Lo and behold, it goes to arbitration, and the arbitrator agrees with the company position. It was INDEED against the contract, but since we did nothing about it for the months and months (years maybe?), we were giving our tacit approval.
Now what was a totally grievance situation, subject to correction and compensation (or at least a "cease and desist"), becomes "past practice" and is deemed ok, giving the company free reign to do what they want.
Slack enforcement becomes a concession.
It is VERY important to get any potential contract violations in front of the contract admin team. They HAVE to keep a record of this so they know what is becoming a problem.
Is this "toxic" labor relations? No, it's called expecting the other party to hold up their end of the agreement.
Nu
Documenting a pattern of contract abuse, no matter what the issue, is very important in any grievance cases that occur down the road.
Say the company is too slack on running the PCS runs right on time. Starts out as 0700, then 0710, then 0730. Pretty soon, there's no schedule at all.
FINALLY someone decides to grieve it, and naturally the company says "well, what's the problem? You never complained before" (there's no record, because it was "just worked out with scheduling" on an individual basis.
Lo and behold, it goes to arbitration, and the arbitrator agrees with the company position. It was INDEED against the contract, but since we did nothing about it for the months and months (years maybe?), we were giving our tacit approval.
Now what was a totally grievance situation, subject to correction and compensation (or at least a "cease and desist"), becomes "past practice" and is deemed ok, giving the company free reign to do what they want.
Slack enforcement becomes a concession.
It is VERY important to get any potential contract violations in front of the contract admin team. They HAVE to keep a record of this so they know what is becoming a problem.
Is this "toxic" labor relations? No, it's called expecting the other party to hold up their end of the agreement.
Nu
If you have a problem first try to talk with scheduling. If that doesn't work make sure you talk to a supervisor. Next, talk to your chief pilot and see if he can work it out. If that doesn't work to your satisfaction then call ALPA scheduling and see what they say. If they agree there was a violation then call Contract Admin. The bottom line, continue up the line until you get some definitive solution to your problem. The solution may be the contract was followed or the solution may lead to a system board. If you cry wolf for everything, no one believes you when the wolf is really there.
05-30-2010, 11:02 AM
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Seeking no jacket required rotations
Posts: 1,069
There's a good reason why pilots should never represent themselves as lawyers. This is Example Number 1.
If you have a problem first try to talk with scheduling. If that doesn't work make sure you talk to a supervisor. Next, talk to your chief pilot and see if he can work it out. If that doesn't work to your satisfaction then call ALPA scheduling and see what they say. If they agree there was a violation then call Contract Admin. The bottom line, continue up the line until you get some definitive solution to your problem. The solution may be the contract was followed or the solution may lead to a system board. If you cry wolf for everything, no one believes you when the wolf is really there.
If you have a problem first try to talk with scheduling. If that doesn't work make sure you talk to a supervisor. Next, talk to your chief pilot and see if he can work it out. If that doesn't work to your satisfaction then call ALPA scheduling and see what they say. If they agree there was a violation then call Contract Admin. The bottom line, continue up the line until you get some definitive solution to your problem. The solution may be the contract was followed or the solution may lead to a system board. If you cry wolf for everything, no one believes you when the wolf is really there.
That is why you file it to get the paper trail started and then let the ALPA grievance review board decide whether it has merit or to let it die.
If ALPA decides its without merit, the pilot then has the option to pursue it using his/her own resources.
If ALPA decides it has merit then they can take it to system board, they can talk to the appropriate management for that department, they can wait and see if it continues. IMO a phone call from ALPA Contract Admin is likely to get quicker results than a call from a line pilot saying - You guys screwed me...
Filing a grievance quickly serves a very useful purpose in establishing a history/trend/paper trail that can be used later IF NEEDED. Even if you resolve your problem quickly on your own, you should still document it for others benefit and let ALPA Contract Admin decide what to do with the information.
We had some schedulers that kept lists of pilots that did not know the contract (so they could take advantage of them) and the ones that did know the contract (so they wouldn't have a grievance filed against them).
That eventually led to an automated system on the fNW scheduling computers that would flash (and record) a Scheduling Alert if something was not contractually legal or not legal in FARs. Even then there are things that could not or were not detected by that system, but it went a long way to detecting "trends" by certain schedulers, so it still paid dividends to at least file the grievance and add to the ALPA database..
Pilots would (hopefully) ask if there was an alert on their line when scheduling tried to assign/change something. Those pilots that did NOT know the contract now had a tool to see if they were being screwed. Even if they didn't know the language, all they had to remember was to ask about an alert on their line.
ALPA could get copies of the recorded events on request for enforcement purposes.
Last edited by Nosmo King; 05-30-2010 at 11:57 AM.
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