Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-16-2010, 08:05 PM
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Seeking no jacket required rotations
Posts: 1,069
That sounds about right. If you live in or are based in your domicile, even if you are an instructor, DAL does not pay for your hotel. You are supposedly live there so why would they/we? If the base instructors wouldn't do it, DAL would PS a guy in there to do it and pay for the hotel....like they do for out-of-base pilots coming back to ATL and MSP for training. Sounds totally consistent.
05-16-2010, 08:05 PM
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Using this logic, the company could call you at hour 19 of your short call day and send you out on 2 hours notice. After all, you were not used the prior 12 hours so you were not "on duty", at least according to your interpretation.
Sorry, but Whitlow was instituted to avoid the very look-back scenario you are espousing as legal. That's not to say Delta hasn't been getting away with this for years, but at NWA we didn't let them.
Gotta side with Super on this one.
Sorry, but Whitlow was instituted to avoid the very look-back scenario you are espousing as legal. That's not to say Delta hasn't been getting away with this for years, but at NWA we didn't let them.
Gotta side with Super on this one.
Not familiar with the international rules in the PWA. I can agree that EXTENDING your crew day to conform to the international rules is perfectly legal. I think where we part company is in IGNORING the time you were already on call. At NWA, if we got called out on an international trip 10 hours into our reserve day, we were already 10 hours into our contractual/FAR duty limit.
My ignorance may be showing, but in reading this board it looks like DAL does disregard the time you were already on call. If that is true, I take serious exception to it.
My ignorance may be showing, but in reading this board it looks like DAL does disregard the time you were already on call. If that is true, I take serious exception to it.
thanks for clarifying this, thats exactly what should happen.
05-16-2010, 08:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess they won't be instructors in MSP much longer. Surely, there are capable guys who live there or wouldn't mind commuting into there that would like that job, like the pay, and the QOL. That's why DAL-S doesn't have a lot of guys commuting in to "train" in ATL. There are no shortages of guys who can instruct, nor who want to. Why would DAL pay for guys to fly in and board, at company expense? Sorry,the whole ivory tower instructing thing is so '80s.
05-16-2010, 08:18 PM
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Super, I'm not trying to fight you on this, but you didn't read the whole sentence. :-)
A reserve pilot may be on call for any number of consecutive days, but must have been released from telephone responsibilities for at least 24 consecutive hours at some point in the past seven days prior to reporting for domestic flight duty.
Prior to reporting for domestic flight duty. It doesn't say for being on call or deadheading or anything else. And you're ignoring the next sentence:
Important note: There is no requirement to place a day of rest on the seventh consecutive on-call day if no 24 hour rest in the past seven days can be found. As long as a pilot has 24 hours rest in seven days prior to reporting for domestic flight duty he is legal. When needed, such rest is placed on the pilot’s line at the time that a domestic trip is assigned. This has the effect of providing him at least 24 hours notice to a domestic reserve flying assignment if he cannot look back and find 24 hours rest in the preceding seven days.
I just want you to understand that if you don't take the trip or stomp your feet and go home because you feel that you're owned a day off, you're on your own. The union isn't going to back you because they don't agree with you. The FAA isn't going to back you either. You may think you are owed the day off, but I hate to say it, but in my opinion, you aren't right.
I spent time at my former airline being on the System Board. We saw grievances all the time where the pilot said, "but that's not fair" or "but that's not now I read it". There isn't any room for emotion or what we want - it's black and white when it comes to the regs and this kind of stuff.
A reserve pilot may be on call for any number of consecutive days, but must have been released from telephone responsibilities for at least 24 consecutive hours at some point in the past seven days prior to reporting for domestic flight duty.
Prior to reporting for domestic flight duty. It doesn't say for being on call or deadheading or anything else. And you're ignoring the next sentence:
Important note: There is no requirement to place a day of rest on the seventh consecutive on-call day if no 24 hour rest in the past seven days can be found. As long as a pilot has 24 hours rest in seven days prior to reporting for domestic flight duty he is legal. When needed, such rest is placed on the pilot’s line at the time that a domestic trip is assigned. This has the effect of providing him at least 24 hours notice to a domestic reserve flying assignment if he cannot look back and find 24 hours rest in the preceding seven days.
I just want you to understand that if you don't take the trip or stomp your feet and go home because you feel that you're owned a day off, you're on your own. The union isn't going to back you because they don't agree with you. The FAA isn't going to back you either. You may think you are owed the day off, but I hate to say it, but in my opinion, you aren't right.
I spent time at my former airline being on the System Board. We saw grievances all the time where the pilot said, "but that's not fair" or "but that's not now I read it". There isn't any room for emotion or what we want - it's black and white when it comes to the regs and this kind of stuff.
Look back is if on day 5 you're given a 5 day trip, you're legal IF you've had a 24 hour break from reserve duty in the last 2 days prior to the trip, thus ensuring you wont be working 7 days in a row without a break.
Like you said, I'm not trying to argue, but we have a difference of opinion on this. Like the previous poster said, He was just released by scheduling to comply with the 24 of in seven days meaning they are adhering to the the FAR and understand it just as i've explained it.
05-16-2010, 08:26 PM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,722
Like you said, I'm not trying to argue, but we have a difference of opinion on this. Like the previous poster said, He was just released by scheduling to comply with the 24 of in seven days meaning they are adhering to the the FAR and understand it just as i've explained it.
I hope everyone either gets what they want or doesn't get displaced on the AE. I'm only a few #s below Satchip on the 7ER and I'm a bit worried too. But I think the SEA 7ER is going to pull a lot of people off the top, of all categories. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
05-16-2010, 08:32 PM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,722
Let move onto what this thread is really about: good lookin'
I wanted to point out to all those Auburn people who keep saying their girls are hot that a Michigan girl won the Miss USA Pageant. (Also a U of Michigan grad):
She's from Dearborn, MI which is only 15 miles east of DTW. But don't bid DTW because of her - she's headed to law school.
I wanted to point out to all those Auburn people who keep saying their girls are hot that a Michigan girl won the Miss USA Pageant. (Also a U of Michigan grad):
She's from Dearborn, MI which is only 15 miles east of DTW. But don't bid DTW because of her - she's headed to law school.
05-16-2010, 08:37 PM
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined APC: Jul 2008
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Posts: 1,069
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess they won't be instructors in MSP much longer. Surely, there are capable guys who live there or wouldn't mind commuting into there that would like that job, like the pay, and the QOL. That's why DAL-S doesn't have a lot of guys commuting in to "train" in ATL. There are no shortages of guys who can instruct, nor who want to. Why would DAL pay for guys to fly in and board, at company expense? Sorry,the whole ivory tower instructing thing is so '80s.
Do seriously expect all of our instructors on the 747, 330, 320 and DC-9 to live in MSP?
MSP is our smallest 330 base and is NOT a 747 base. If you insist on limiting instructors on those airplanes to pilots that live in MSP you are severely limiting the quality and quantity of the instructor cadre, because fNW that used to get paid hotels and per diem are not likely to do it on their own dime.
I suppose you would rather give those instructor jobs to non seniority list pilots or out of seniority pilots when they can't meet training demands for instructors. I'd rather have guys that are really good seniority list instructors regardless of where they live or are based.
05-16-2010, 08:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
When fNW originally decided to pay hotel and per diem to instructors it was to prevent the instructor cadre from becoming an "old boys" network. It also opened up instructing to a much wider pool of candidates, some of whom were extremely good instructors that did not live in and were not based in MSP.
Do seriously expect all of our instructors on the 747, 330, 320 and DC-9 to live in MSP?
MSP is our smallest 330 base and is NOT a 747 base. If you insist on limiting instructors on those airplanes to pilots that live in MSP you are severely limiting the quality and quantity of the instructor cadre, because fNW that used to get paid hotels and per diem are not likely to do it on their own dime.
I suppose you would rather give those instructor jobs to non seniority list pilots or out of seniority pilots when they can't meet training demands for instructors. I'd rather have guys that are really good seniority list instructors regardless of where they live or are based.
Do seriously expect all of our instructors on the 747, 330, 320 and DC-9 to live in MSP?
MSP is our smallest 330 base and is NOT a 747 base. If you insist on limiting instructors on those airplanes to pilots that live in MSP you are severely limiting the quality and quantity of the instructor cadre, because fNW that used to get paid hotels and per diem are not likely to do it on their own dime.
I suppose you would rather give those instructor jobs to non seniority list pilots or out of seniority pilots when they can't meet training demands for instructors. I'd rather have guys that are really good seniority list instructors regardless of where they live or are based.
The salad days are gone brother. If a former northie, or a southie for that matter, wants to instruct in ATL or MSP, they'd better figure out a way to get there and do that. The survey says that Mother DAL ain't gonna pay for it. Just the facts, ma'am. And, in fact, its not on their own dime. They get paid for the highest seniority position they can hold, they get much more control of their schedule. If they have to commute to MSP and hang out at the Holiday Inn, my heart does not bleed. Instructing is a cushie gig, especially for the line guys. It just got less cushier.
05-16-2010, 09:04 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Thanks FTB.
Live about a mile and a half from his library. Have given a few speeches at his ranch. Which is an amazing experience and far more austere than most Americans would think. At the library, they have his last AF One jet on a stand. Walk on board, and the ONLY character/mannequin you'll see is the military aide (Air Force, by the way). Wasn't me, far too young, but still cool and he has the "football" chained to his wrist. It took my 7-year old on a school field trip to finally figure out that his dad once did that.
Live about a mile and a half from his library. Have given a few speeches at his ranch. Which is an amazing experience and far more austere than most Americans would think. At the library, they have his last AF One jet on a stand. Walk on board, and the ONLY character/mannequin you'll see is the military aide (Air Force, by the way). Wasn't me, far too young, but still cool and he has the "football" chained to his wrist. It took my 7-year old on a school field trip to finally figure out that his dad once did that.
Let move onto what this thread is really about: good lookin'
I wanted to point out to all those Auburn people who keep saying their girls are hot that a Michigan girl won the Miss USA Pageant. (Also a U of Michigan grad):
She's from Dearborn, MI which is only 15 miles east of DTW. But don't bid DTW because of her - she's headed to law school.
I wanted to point out to all those Auburn people who keep saying their girls are hot that a Michigan girl won the Miss USA Pageant. (Also a U of Michigan grad):
She's from Dearborn, MI which is only 15 miles east of DTW. But don't bid DTW because of her - she's headed to law school.
... I mean she's going to law school huh? Criminal or civil? She'd be smart to do civil, and die that hair brown or blonde, she then might qualify for Fox News.
05-16-2010, 09:16 PM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,722
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