Originally Posted by slowplay

I don't know about you, but I'm a little tired of the same old same old. How about we innovate a compensation structure that lets us share disproportionately when times are good, but provides a competitive backstop when they're bad? Why don't we find a way to prevent management from paying everybody but us when they're flush with cash, and taking it from us first when they want to avoid the courts?

Ironclad section ones, big raises, full 415C's...they're unsustainable pipe dreams unless the company is making money. There is no free market example of which I'm aware of an employee group keeping industry leading contracts when their employers aren't profitable.

Guys talking about Section 6 like nothing's changed concerns me. If you go back to that battlefield, it's my opinion you may win a few battles, but you'll definitely lose the war. We need to adapt.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

If I could really answer that question, I would be the richest man in the world. The problem with negotiations is that there is no "leverage-o-meter" that tells you that you have gotten everything you could out of the deal. Think back on your last house negotiation, could you have gotten another $100 off, $500 off, $1,000, $2,000? There is no way to answer that question in reality. What you need to do is to perform as much economic research as possible, understand the market (other pilot groups) and then hone in on your target. Once you understand the economics of the deal, then you can establish a bracket pretty quickly for the final deal. The aim of a negotiator is to push that bracket as hard as you can.

A good negotiator will not give the other side an easy choice, a good negotiator will give the other side a difficult choice. For example, if you are selling a house and the current market (the current market includes how difficult it is to sell) for that house is $300,000, then if you have someone offer you $100,000 or $200,000 for the house, they have given you an easy choice, "NO". If someone offers you $285,000, then you have to start thinking about it. Each sides job is to push on that bracket as hard as you can until you reach the deal. Once again, neither side will ever know if they ever really got the "best deal" possible in the bargain.

It is worthless for an MEC to establish a goal that is crazy far out of the market. The APA has done that and they have nothing to show for it. They will stay on the sidelines until AMR starts making tons of money or until they change their sights a little. Inexperienced MEC members often think that the key to tough negotiations is to ask for ridiculous amounts in the hopes that that will show their resolve. Unless management hires a 12 year old to negotiate for them, it won't work. The key in tough negotiations is to know the final deal, hone in on it, and then push on that deal as hard as you can. Pulling the trigger on a TA is tough, because you don't have the "leverage-o-meter" that tells you that you have gone as far as you can. That's why I say, that if I could really tell you the answer to the question "how much is far enough" I would be wealthy beyond any dreams.

The key for an MEC member is to put in the time to study the industry so you can find out the where the market is. This takes a lot of time. You have to read company's 10-Q and 10-K reports, you have to listen to webcasts and investor conferences, and you have to learn to read a P+L statement. We have a lot of new MEC members, you should push yours to put the time in. Here are some tough questions they should be able to answer:

What is the status of the US Air pilot seniority battle?
What is the status of the loan and unrestricted cash covenants for US Air? (Hint there are three)
Why is AMR replacing their MD-80's with 737's and why isn't Delta? What does this mean for the company long term and for the pilots in particular?
How will Southwest change their business model in the next 5 years and what does it mean for Delta?

In CAL/UAL get a good contract, then that will make our future job easier. Now is a good time for them to negotiate, next year will be even better, hopefully, for us.

One final note, if anyone thinks these incoherent ramblings represent anything other than my own single opinion then you are wrong. I have no position in the union and I have no inside information. Just a few years of experience and I put in a lot of time to study the industry, probably more than most reps. Again, you should push them to put their work in, they asked for the job so make them work for all the glory and fame they get.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

How do you reconcile this? On one hand, you seem to advocate major improvements to our compensation and to find a way to decouple it from the financial position of the company. But then on the other hand, you talk about "ironclad section ones, big raises, full 415C's" being "unsustainable pipe dreams unless the company is making money."

What is your objective for our profession? Do you want restoration? Do you realize what kinds of massive improvements it would take to achieve that? Or is restoration just a "pipe dream" in your opinion?

Originally Posted by satchip

All right, I'm going to say something controversial now. Big shock, huh?

Restoration is a pipe dream. The world has changed, the market has changed, our profession has changed. To constantly look to the past and yearn for what was and will never be again is a pipe dream.

We must look forward and attain the highest compensation for our times, not some golden age. Our labor market is subject to many forces and laws that have radically changed since when most of you started this job. It is not 1980, or 1988, or 1992, or 2000 for that matter. It is 2010 and we have a completely different set of conditions that define what level of compensation we are able to achieve.

Put away the pitch forks, i'm not talking about acquiescing at our current level. We can make significant gains and set a new standard for OUR times. First we must understand the things Alfa posed. Then we have to break the shackles of the past and stop judging our success by comparing to the past. We can't turn back the clock.

Originally Posted by satchip

All right, I'm going to say something controversial now. Big shock, huh?

Restoration is a pipe dream. The world has changed, the market has changed, our profession has changed. To constantly look to the past and yearn for what was and will never be again is a pipe dream.

We must look forward and attain the highest compensation for our times, not some golden age. Our labor market is subject to many forces and laws that have radically changed since when most of you started this job. It is not 1980, or 1988, or 1992, or 2000 for that matter. It is 2010 and we have a completely different set of conditions that define what level of compensation we are able to achieve.

Put away the pitch forks, i'm not talking about acquiescing at our current level. We can make significant gains and set a new standard for OUR times. First we must understand the things Alfa posed. Then we have to break the shackles of the past and stop judging our success by comparing to the past. We can't turn back the clock.

Originally Posted by scambo1

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I have a pitchfork.

How is it that KLM, Lufthansa, and Air France exceed significantly our past payrates, but somehow are able to stay competitive.

It is okay with me if the company and mangement have to struggle daily with how they are going to make payroll for the pilots.

Have you bought a piece of lumber recently - double the price of a year ago.