Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-09-2010, 10:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,423
Sailing,
This does not sound right for a bunch of reasons:
First off - The situation you describe only applies if the 777 is a replacement for the 787 or 747. New 777s would not activate "dual Lists."
Second - You are forgetting about DALPAs policy of "Fly now - grieve later." Even if what you say is true -When scheduling calls - we are suppossed to go. The mechanical in NRT would be flown and the Union would grieve it later.
Third - The company seems to find a way around our contract when ever they really want to. If DAL is saying the fences are affecting aircraft orders, I would bet its only because that is exactly what DAL wants us to think.
Besides - At the rate the 787 is going its looking like an academic argument after all. If current trends continue (sliding timelines) It looks like the fences will come down before the 787 begins revenue service.
Finally, not intending to bid either aircraft I could give a crap who flies the 777/747, its all good as far as I am concerned.
Bring em on - the more the merrier!
Scoop
This does not sound right for a bunch of reasons:
First off - The situation you describe only applies if the 777 is a replacement for the 787 or 747. New 777s would not activate "dual Lists."
Second - You are forgetting about DALPAs policy of "Fly now - grieve later." Even if what you say is true -When scheduling calls - we are suppossed to go. The mechanical in NRT would be flown and the Union would grieve it later.
Third - The company seems to find a way around our contract when ever they really want to. If DAL is saying the fences are affecting aircraft orders, I would bet its only because that is exactly what DAL wants us to think.
Besides - At the rate the 787 is going its looking like an academic argument after all. If current trends continue (sliding timelines) It looks like the fences will come down before the 787 begins revenue service.
Finally, not intending to bid either aircraft I could give a crap who flies the 777/747, its all good as far as I am concerned.
Bring em on - the more the merrier!Scoop
You reference the contract however this is not contractual. It is a award from the NMB under binding arbitration. You will not see the company just decide they are not going to honor the award. They would in fact have to have two different 777 categories.
As far as fly now grieve later that applies to area's that could be considered gray areas in the contract. It does not apply to all areas. If as a example the company ask you to fly past the max duty time fly now grieve later does not apply. Trying to fly in violation of the SLI would not be a fly now grieve later issue.
05-09-2010, 10:58 AM
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Posts: 189
05-09-2010, 11:39 AM
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See my post above. There would be no need for two categories of the same airplane. There would be an allocation of "redtail" seats in an existing category.
Fences, such as they are, only apply to the awarding of of positions or displacements. Once people are qualified, they bid in their normal seniority position. If the #1 fDAL guy gets a DTW 744 award because it went insufficient, and he happens to be #1 on the combined list, he would bid first in the category, not at the bottom. But if there are displacements, he'd be the first to get the boot.
It would be exactly the same as if 777s replaced all of the 744s. They would tally up the number of seats, and apply that to the 777 staffing. Then when they do the awards, the computer says "ok, I have 50 bluetail seats and 50 redtail seats" and makes the awards as appropriate.
Once everyone is there, though, seniority rules for everything else. Easy peasy.
I'm not sure why you guys think there need to be two different categories for the same airplane.
Nu
Last edited by NuGuy; 05-09-2010 at 04:10 PM.
05-09-2010, 11:57 AM
Moderator
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Posts: 6,946
Nu,
Sailing is normally spot on but I tend to agree with you on this one. Besides - fNW guys have a lot more experience with fences than the DAL south crowd.
Scoop
Sailing is normally spot on
but I tend to agree with you on this one. Besides - fNW guys have a lot more experience with fences than the DAL south crowd.Scoop
05-09-2010, 01:05 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Heyas Sailing,
See my post above. There would be no need for two categories of the same airplane. There would be an allocation of "redtail" seats in an existing category.
Fences, such as they are, only apply to the awarding of of positions or displacements. Once people are qualified, the bid in their normal seniority position. If the #1 fDAL guy gets a DTW 744 award because it went insufficient, and he happens to be #1 on the combined list, he would bid first in the category, not at the bottom. But if there are displacements, he'd be the first to get the boot.
It would be exactly the same as if 777s replaced all of the 744s. They would tally up the number of seats, and apply that to the 777 staffing. Then when they do the awards, the computer says "ok, I have 50 bluetail seats and 50 redtail seats)" and makes the awards as appropriate.
Once everyone is there, though, seniority rules for everything else. Easy peasy.
I'm not sure why you guys think there need to be two different categories for the same airplane.
Nu
See my post above. There would be no need for two categories of the same airplane. There would be an allocation of "redtail" seats in an existing category.
Fences, such as they are, only apply to the awarding of of positions or displacements. Once people are qualified, the bid in their normal seniority position. If the #1 fDAL guy gets a DTW 744 award because it went insufficient, and he happens to be #1 on the combined list, he would bid first in the category, not at the bottom. But if there are displacements, he'd be the first to get the boot.
It would be exactly the same as if 777s replaced all of the 744s. They would tally up the number of seats, and apply that to the 777 staffing. Then when they do the awards, the computer says "ok, I have 50 bluetail seats and 50 redtail seats)" and makes the awards as appropriate.
Once everyone is there, though, seniority rules for everything else. Easy peasy.
I'm not sure why you guys think there need to be two different categories for the same airplane.
Nu
Exactly, Nu.
Sailing is way off base on this one- The company is not buying new 777's because we don't want to incur the debt right now. Simple as that... Perhaps we'll see a response in the near future to the gobs of 777s and 747s that the combined UAL/CAL have.
05-09-2010, 01:34 PM
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05-09-2010, 01:47 PM
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Thanks keenster.
Denny
05-09-2010, 03:21 PM
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Food for Thought
Ok, We have a PIRP and get around 220 guys to go early. The company spends 9 months of full pay as an incentive to go early. That adds up to alot of bucks. Now we are going to hire 250 guys off the street and train them. That adds up to alot of bucks. These 2 items alone seem to indicate that someone somewhere does not know what the heck is going on with respect to the future of this company. Another example, the company displaces 60-70 fos off the 744 in Jan and then in May put 20 capts on and 50 fos back on the aircraft. It sure seems that the tail is wagging the dog around here. Alot of displacement training cost and then cost to put guys back on the aircraft. I'm sure Pineapple loves all this money the company is throwing around, but then they will ask us for pay cuts when things get tough again. Who holds them accountable for bad business decisions they make and want us to pay for????? Just an observation, but it sure seems that DAL throws money around and is way more wasteful than fNWA. I am saying this because I am concerned about the health of this company. We are carrying around on average 7500-10000 pounds of fuel over what we used to land with on the old flight plan system. That adds up to alot of fuel burned to carry extra fuel. Nobody seems to care. We had a guy no show his trip to start this trip. Nobody seem to care that no one was there. They did not even know the other capt was not there. Had we not called at 1 hour before departure, we would have canceled the flight. I am just saying that this operation sure appears to be a ship with a lot of small leaks in the hull. The question is: are they fixing the leaks or are they going to get alot bigger and sink the ship? I think that as a company we have much bigger issues in front of us than what aircraft is being parked and what base is being opened or closed, and this aircraft should not be flying in this base. It's the typical worring about the **** ants while the elephant stomps on you. To me the operation needs to become lean, mean and efficient. I don't get that feeling now!
05-09-2010, 03:28 PM
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Posts: 841
Who said the 777's had to be new ones!
05-09-2010, 03:45 PM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
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Posts: 1,898
Ok, We have a PIRP and get around 220 guys to go early. The company spends 9 months of full pay as an incentive to go early. That adds up to alot of bucks. Now we are going to hire 250 guys off the street and train them. That adds up to alot of bucks. These 2 items alone seem to indicate that someone somewhere does not know what the heck is going on with respect to the future of this company. Another example, the company displaces 60-70 fos off the 744 in Jan and then in May put 20 capts on and 50 fos back on the aircraft. It sure seems that the tail is wagging the dog around here. Alot of displacement training cost and then cost to put guys back on the aircraft. I'm sure Pineapple loves all this money the company is throwing around, but then they will ask us for pay cuts when things get tough again. Who holds them accountable for bad business decisions they make and want us to pay for????? Just an observation, but it sure seems that DAL throws money around and is way more wasteful than fNWA. I am saying this because I am concerned about the health of this company. We are carrying around on average 7500-10000 pounds of fuel over what we used to land with on the old flight plan system. That adds up to alot of fuel burned to carry extra fuel. Nobody seems to care. We had a guy no show his trip to start this trip. Nobody seem to care that no one was there. They did not even know the other capt was not there. Had we not called at 1 hour before departure, we would have canceled the flight. I am just saying that this operation sure appears to be a ship with a lot of small leaks in the hull. The question is: are they fixing the leaks or are they going to get alot bigger and sink the ship? I think that as a company we have much bigger issues in front of us than what aircraft is being parked and what base is being opened or closed, and this aircraft should not be flying in this base. It's the typical worring about the **** ants while the elephant stomps on you. To me the operation needs to become lean, mean and efficient. I don't get that feeling now!
Maybe what you wrote came across as too anti-pilot, and you probably aren't really that way. If you really want to see what is going on behind the scenes, do a few months in the OCC, or apply for a special assignment in the CPO. You'll get a lot of insight into the "other side of the coin". If you want lean and mean, by all means, don't go to JFK!!! It will give you a stroke.
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