Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-27-2010, 07:03 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,423
I disagree, that is why you should be paid more "upfront" to account for the fact that once you have "paid dues" you cannot take those "dues" elsewhere. (That CEO takes his "dues" and actually makes MORE at te next stop, it makes no sense that we force our own to "start over". In fact, our system helps depress indusrty wages even more, by making start ups more economically feasible in the pilot wage arena.)
Plus, getting shot at, riding around on top of explosive devices, or flying 16 hr. days for 27-70k is enough "dues paying". If you've been hired at a major, you have already "paid dues" in one way or another.
Plus, getting shot at, riding around on top of explosive devices, or flying 16 hr. days for 27-70k is enough "dues paying". If you've been hired at a major, you have already "paid dues" in one way or another.
Virtually every job at any company has a length of service component in their pay structure. Its the norm not the exception. At Delta since I was hired in 86 the bottom half of the seniority list has enjoy far greater gains in compensation then the top so there has been some adjustments. As a example a 767 Captain made 151 an hour in 1988. A 767 3rd year copilot made 60 dollars an hour. Today that same Captain makes 174 an hour and that same copilot makes make 119 per hour.
Today a first year new hire should be able to clear close to 50,000 his first year. The same pilot in 1988 made 21,000 for the year. Add in the fact that almost everyone spent 2 to 5 years in the SO seat before moving to a window seat and the pay difference is even better.
Other areas that are considered junior issues in the contract have also enjoyed large improvements. No one section of the contract has enjoyed more improvement since 88 then the reserve system. Its dramatically better even today after the 1113 contract. Junior pilots were capped at 6 percent of earnings for 401k contributions back then and could not contribute the first year. This is killing the so called dead zoners today because they after 5 years with the company few had more then 20,000 in their 401k. Today that restriction is gone and junior pilots can contribute to the IRS maximum of 16,500 per year.
Even the contract extension just signed had a great deal for junior pilots. The 2 percent increase to the 401k contributions is huge for a pilot with 20 to 30 years go go at Delta but means little to a deadzoner. The matrix for junior pilots was huge also in the 1113 contract and devasting for senior pilots when the retirement was killed.
I notice a trend here to bash ALPA and senior pilots for not taking care of junior pilots. If you did a honest comparison of contracts over the last 25 years you will find that not only is that not true but the opposite is actually the reality.
04-27-2010, 07:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Section 12:13
13. In order to determine what, if any, assignment has been placed on his schedule for the
period following his release, a reserve pilot is required to check and acknowledge his
schedule via DBMS/VRU after completion of the last flight segment of a rotation and
prior to release. At that time, his schedule may show an assignment:
a. of a rotation with a report that is at least 12 hours after his release.
b. to short call duty beginning no earlier than 10 hours after his release. (see
Section 23 S. 9. b. Exception)
c. of a rest period beginning as early as his release time.
23 S 9b exception
9. A short call pilot:
a. will remain on short call for a period that:
1) is designated by Crew Scheduling, and
2) does not exceed:
a) 12 hours in domestic categories, or
b) 24 hours in international categories
FWIW, if you have access to DALnet or Dal.alpa.org you have access to a pdf file of the PWA!
13. In order to determine what, if any, assignment has been placed on his schedule for the
period following his release, a reserve pilot is required to check and acknowledge his
schedule via DBMS/VRU after completion of the last flight segment of a rotation and
prior to release. At that time, his schedule may show an assignment:
a. of a rotation with a report that is at least 12 hours after his release.
b. to short call duty beginning no earlier than 10 hours after his release. (see
Section 23 S. 9. b. Exception)
c. of a rest period beginning as early as his release time.
23 S 9b exception
9. A short call pilot:
a. will remain on short call for a period that:
1) is designated by Crew Scheduling, and
2) does not exceed:
a) 12 hours in domestic categories, or
b) 24 hours in international categories
FWIW, if you have access to DALnet or Dal.alpa.org you have access to a pdf file of the PWA!
04-27-2010, 07:10 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Beer;
I will be vague, probably this week!
I will be vague, probably this week!
04-27-2010, 07:14 AM
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,598
Today a first year new hire should be able to clear close to 50,000 his first year. The same pilot in 1988 made 21,000 for the year. Add in the fact that almost everyone spent 2 to 5 years in the SO seat before moving to a window seat and the pay difference is even better.
OK just checked the average home price for 1988 and it was 91,000 so I was a little low and the average new car price was 10,000. The median home price today is 215,000 and the average price of a new car is over 30K. Can't find the price of a Snickers in 1988.
04-27-2010, 07:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Virtually every job at any company has a length of service component in their pay structure. Its the norm not the exception. At Delta since I was hired in 86 the bottom half of the seniority list has enjoy far greater gains in compensation then the top sot here has been some adjustments. As a example a 767 Captain made 151 an hour in 1988. A 767 3rd year copilot made 60 dollars an hour. Today that same Captain makes 174 an hour and that same copilot makes make 119,00 per hour.
Today a first year new hire should be able to clear close to 50,000 his first year. The same pilot in 1988 made 21,000 for the year. Add in the fact that almost everyone spent 2 to 5 years in the SO seat before moving to a window seat and the pay difference is even better.
Other areas that are considered junior issues in the contract have also enjoyed large improvements. No one section of the contract has enjoyed more improvement since 88 then the reserve system. Its dramatically better even today after the 1113 contract. Junior pilots were capped at 6 percent of earnings for 401k contributions back then and could not contribute the first year. This is killing the so called dead zoners today because they after 5 years with the company few had more then 20,000 in their 401k. Today that restriction is gone and junior pilots can contribute to the IRS maximum of 16,500 per year.
Even the contract extension just signed had a great deal for junior pilots. The 2 percent increase to the 401k contributions is huge for a pilot with 20 to 30 years go go at Delta but means little to a deadzoner. The matrix for junior pilots was huge also in the 1113 contract and devasting for senior pilots when the retirement was killed.
I notice a trend her to bash ALPA and senior pilots for not taking care of junior pilots. If you did a honest comparison of contracts over the last 25 years you will find that not only is that not true but the opposite is actually the reality.
Today a first year new hire should be able to clear close to 50,000 his first year. The same pilot in 1988 made 21,000 for the year. Add in the fact that almost everyone spent 2 to 5 years in the SO seat before moving to a window seat and the pay difference is even better.
Other areas that are considered junior issues in the contract have also enjoyed large improvements. No one section of the contract has enjoyed more improvement since 88 then the reserve system. Its dramatically better even today after the 1113 contract. Junior pilots were capped at 6 percent of earnings for 401k contributions back then and could not contribute the first year. This is killing the so called dead zoners today because they after 5 years with the company few had more then 20,000 in their 401k. Today that restriction is gone and junior pilots can contribute to the IRS maximum of 16,500 per year.
Even the contract extension just signed had a great deal for junior pilots. The 2 percent increase to the 401k contributions is huge for a pilot with 20 to 30 years go go at Delta but means little to a deadzoner. The matrix for junior pilots was huge also in the 1113 contract and devasting for senior pilots when the retirement was killed.
I notice a trend her to bash ALPA and senior pilots for not taking care of junior pilots. If you did a honest comparison of contracts over the last 25 years you will find that not only is that not true but the opposite is actually the reality.
Looking long term it matters much more what you make your first three years than it does your last three. And a big part of that is job security. 12-15% of nothing is still nothing. Compound interest doesnt benefit a furloughed pilot.
The idea of tapping into the revenue stream on future growth and JVs could fund such DZDC payments. I'm not a corporate accountant but aren't there tax advantages to dumping more money in our DC plans?
04-27-2010, 07:22 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I disagree, that is why you should be paid more "upfront" to account for the fact that once you have "paid dues" you cannot take those "dues" elsewhere. (That CEO takes his "dues" and actually makes MORE at te next stop, it makes no sense that we force our own to "start over". In fact, our system helps depress indusrty wages even more, by making start ups more economically feasible in the pilot wage arena.)
Plus, getting shot at, riding around on top of explosive devices, or flying 16 hr. days for 27-70k is enough "dues paying". If you've been hired at a major, you have already "paid dues" in one way or another.
Plus, getting shot at, riding around on top of explosive devices, or flying 16 hr. days for 27-70k is enough "dues paying". If you've been hired at a major, you have already "paid dues" in one way or another.
Edit (after reading sailingfun's post): Sounds like new hire pay is more than I realized. And that increase to the DC is very significant over a long timeframe. I definitely agree that a person has paid his/her dues by the time they get here. And seniority should certainly determine pay. But it sounds to me like the real solution is for us to get our entire pay scale back into an appropriate range. That should fix the problem.
04-27-2010, 07:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: C-17, DAL 737B
Posts: 120
DH Improvements from LOA#20
First let me say that I genuinely appreciate that DALPA is trying to improve sections of the contract for us. Kudos to them for their efforts. However, I have some constuctive criticism I intend on forwarding to them about this area, but want to get some feedback from other line pilots to make sure I'm not out on Pluto on this.
Second, I HATE deadheading with a passion. I think it is twice as tiring to DH than to operate the flight. I understand that it is good for exceeding 8 hours of pay and all that, but when we are doing it we are saving the company hotel money or making the schedule work or be efficient or whatever description you provide. Essentially it helps the company (and us money-wise sometimes) but it allows the company to make their schedule work and therefore our accomodating that should have a price for many reasons not the least of which is safety. To that end, it should be as comfortable for us as possible. I have no doubt that is what DALPA was trying to do with these improvements, but I don't think they go far enough or hold the company as responsible as they should to ensure it. I'm sure there are those that say if you have to DH you should be in FC end of story, but I don't quite agree with that. HVCs are too important, but when you see S4s in FC or $25/$50 upgrades while deadheading in the coach middle seat...well that is a whole other animal, but I digress. I know, automatic PSUP is "coming" in the future--we'll see--different topic.
From Neg Notepad 10-01:
Improved Section 8.F.3. "An aisle seat in the exit row is to be assigned if a deadhead leg is 3:45 or greater within a duty period that is greater than 10 hours. This seating will be provided when the rotation is constructed, if available. For known deadhead legs built into a rotation in the bid package, you can expect this to be the norm. For IROPS the provision still applies; however, in both cases if an aisle seat in the exit row is not available at the time of the reroute or rotation construction, any available aisle seat will be provided. If no aisle seat is available, only then will any coach seat be permitted."
I don't understand why it has to meet 3:45 AND a greater than 10 hour duty period. If a deadhead is in the bid package we should have at least exit row aisle for ANY deadhead of ANY segment length with NO restriction on duty day length!! The company has at least a month heads up about it--no excuses. The seats should be blocked at rotation construction period.
As for an IROP ok, I understand the logic--the company WILL (not should) assign exit row aisle, then aisle, then and only then any other seat. My question is who does this? Crew tracking? The gate agent? I can tell you that 2 days ago I had a DH on my rotation that was awarded over a month ago that was a segment less than 3:45 so I had no assignment until I walked up to the gate. Guess which seat I had...you guessed it, middle seat city.
I know that the improvement from LOA #20 was not applicable as it was less than 3:45, but I asked the agent about it and he had never heard of any such thing. (Friendly professional conversation--not confrontational at all). However, he had no knowledge of this. My suspicion is that crew tracking is responsible for the reservation and saw that it is less than 3:45 and stopped at only putting us on the flight with no seat assignment. I also suspect that this was done less than 24 hours prior to the DH segment and magically there probably weren't any aisle seats left. This was not an IROP and it is wrong as the reservation should have been blocked at rotation construction. In the end, the agent got me an aisle seat--good on him, but viewed it like he did me a great favor. Don't get me wrong, I appreciated it and made sure to tell him so, but it should have never been a question as it should have been negotiated in the first place.
The language in the notepad also irks me a little too. "You can expect this to be the norm." Norm implies normally or with wiggle room which translates too often in my humble estimation to "if we feel like it." I really don't like that. I'm sure some will say just call crew tracking and bug them to make it happen. That is just wrong. We should not have to do this--it is their job and we should define it just that way and use terms "WILL" and "SHALL" not "should" and "norm".
Philly
Second, I HATE deadheading with a passion. I think it is twice as tiring to DH than to operate the flight. I understand that it is good for exceeding 8 hours of pay and all that, but when we are doing it we are saving the company hotel money or making the schedule work or be efficient or whatever description you provide. Essentially it helps the company (and us money-wise sometimes) but it allows the company to make their schedule work and therefore our accomodating that should have a price for many reasons not the least of which is safety. To that end, it should be as comfortable for us as possible. I have no doubt that is what DALPA was trying to do with these improvements, but I don't think they go far enough or hold the company as responsible as they should to ensure it. I'm sure there are those that say if you have to DH you should be in FC end of story, but I don't quite agree with that. HVCs are too important, but when you see S4s in FC or $25/$50 upgrades while deadheading in the coach middle seat...well that is a whole other animal, but I digress. I know, automatic PSUP is "coming" in the future--we'll see--different topic.
From Neg Notepad 10-01:
Improved Section 8.F.3. "An aisle seat in the exit row is to be assigned if a deadhead leg is 3:45 or greater within a duty period that is greater than 10 hours. This seating will be provided when the rotation is constructed, if available. For known deadhead legs built into a rotation in the bid package, you can expect this to be the norm. For IROPS the provision still applies; however, in both cases if an aisle seat in the exit row is not available at the time of the reroute or rotation construction, any available aisle seat will be provided. If no aisle seat is available, only then will any coach seat be permitted."
I don't understand why it has to meet 3:45 AND a greater than 10 hour duty period. If a deadhead is in the bid package we should have at least exit row aisle for ANY deadhead of ANY segment length with NO restriction on duty day length!! The company has at least a month heads up about it--no excuses. The seats should be blocked at rotation construction period.
As for an IROP ok, I understand the logic--the company WILL (not should) assign exit row aisle, then aisle, then and only then any other seat. My question is who does this? Crew tracking? The gate agent? I can tell you that 2 days ago I had a DH on my rotation that was awarded over a month ago that was a segment less than 3:45 so I had no assignment until I walked up to the gate. Guess which seat I had...you guessed it, middle seat city.
I know that the improvement from LOA #20 was not applicable as it was less than 3:45, but I asked the agent about it and he had never heard of any such thing. (Friendly professional conversation--not confrontational at all). However, he had no knowledge of this. My suspicion is that crew tracking is responsible for the reservation and saw that it is less than 3:45 and stopped at only putting us on the flight with no seat assignment. I also suspect that this was done less than 24 hours prior to the DH segment and magically there probably weren't any aisle seats left. This was not an IROP and it is wrong as the reservation should have been blocked at rotation construction. In the end, the agent got me an aisle seat--good on him, but viewed it like he did me a great favor. Don't get me wrong, I appreciated it and made sure to tell him so, but it should have never been a question as it should have been negotiated in the first place.
The language in the notepad also irks me a little too. "You can expect this to be the norm." Norm implies normally or with wiggle room which translates too often in my humble estimation to "if we feel like it." I really don't like that. I'm sure some will say just call crew tracking and bug them to make it happen. That is just wrong. We should not have to do this--it is their job and we should define it just that way and use terms "WILL" and "SHALL" not "should" and "norm".
Philly
04-27-2010, 07:33 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Virtually every job at any company has a length of service component in their pay structure. Its the norm not the exception. At Delta since I was hired in 86 the bottom half of the seniority list has enjoy far greater gains in compensation then the top so there has been some adjustments. As a example a 767 Captain made 151 an hour in 1988. A 767 3rd year copilot made 60 dollars an hour. Today that same Captain makes 174 an hour and that same copilot makes make 119 per hour.
Today a first year new hire should be able to clear close to 50,000 his first year. The same pilot in 1988 made 21,000 for the year. Add in the fact that almost everyone spent 2 to 5 years in the SO seat before moving to a window seat and the pay difference is even better.
Other areas that are considered junior issues in the contract have also enjoyed large improvements. No one section of the contract has enjoyed more improvement since 88 then the reserve system. Its dramatically better even today after the 1113 contract. Junior pilots were capped at 6 percent of earnings for 401k contributions back then and could not contribute the first year. This is killing the so called dead zoners today because they after 5 years with the company few had more then 20,000 in their 401k. Today that restriction is gone and junior pilots can contribute to the IRS maximum of 16,500 per year.
Even the contract extension just signed had a great deal for junior pilots. The 2 percent increase to the 401k contributions is huge for a pilot with 20 to 30 years go go at Delta but means little to a deadzoner. The matrix for junior pilots was huge also in the 1113 contract and devasting for senior pilots when the retirement was killed.
I notice a trend here to bash ALPA and senior pilots for not taking care of junior pilots. If you did a honest comparison of contracts over the last 25 years you will find that not only is that not true but the opposite is actually the reality.
Today a first year new hire should be able to clear close to 50,000 his first year. The same pilot in 1988 made 21,000 for the year. Add in the fact that almost everyone spent 2 to 5 years in the SO seat before moving to a window seat and the pay difference is even better.
Other areas that are considered junior issues in the contract have also enjoyed large improvements. No one section of the contract has enjoyed more improvement since 88 then the reserve system. Its dramatically better even today after the 1113 contract. Junior pilots were capped at 6 percent of earnings for 401k contributions back then and could not contribute the first year. This is killing the so called dead zoners today because they after 5 years with the company few had more then 20,000 in their 401k. Today that restriction is gone and junior pilots can contribute to the IRS maximum of 16,500 per year.
Even the contract extension just signed had a great deal for junior pilots. The 2 percent increase to the 401k contributions is huge for a pilot with 20 to 30 years go go at Delta but means little to a deadzoner. The matrix for junior pilots was huge also in the 1113 contract and devasting for senior pilots when the retirement was killed.
I notice a trend here to bash ALPA and senior pilots for not taking care of junior pilots. If you did a honest comparison of contracts over the last 25 years you will find that not only is that not true but the opposite is actually the reality.
My first year I made 22,400 in three quarters of a year. No way I would have made 50K that year.
I agree that the percentage that a B gets in relation to a A has gotten better. What shiz is stating is that the law of compounding works better if you start our strong and have a linear progression.
I personally have no issue with the senior guys on the big jets making the big money. It makes sense, and keeps a current in the pool. I have detailed what would be good for all.
04-27-2010, 07:37 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Philly;
Do some leg work. If you know you are going to DH, go in to Travelnet, list yourself on the flight under the rotation and then take that confirmation number and go to Delta.com and change your seat. Unless it is oversold, I always have good luck.
I know that many are going to state that it is the companies job to fix this, but it is my duff that gets to live it. Therefore, I do what works for me. I am proactive with this stuff.
Do some leg work. If you know you are going to DH, go in to Travelnet, list yourself on the flight under the rotation and then take that confirmation number and go to Delta.com and change your seat. Unless it is oversold, I always have good luck.
I know that many are going to state that it is the companies job to fix this, but it is my duff that gets to live it. Therefore, I do what works for me. I am proactive with this stuff.
04-27-2010, 07:49 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Air Transport Association Names New Vice President of Operations and Safety
Looks like there is some shifting going on.
Air Transport Association Names New Vice President of Operations and Safety
Capt. Tom Hendricks to Lead Industry Technical Team
NEWS RELEASE
WASHINGTON, April 26, 2010 – The Air Transport Association of America, Inc. (ATA), the industry trade organization for the leading U.S. airlines, today announced that Capt. Tom Hendricks will be joining the association as vice president of operations and safety, effective June 1.
In this role, Capt. Hendricks will assume all leadership responsibilities for the U.S. airline industry’s operations, safety, engineering and air traffic functions.
“Captain Hendricks brings a wealth of extremely valuable aviation expertise and strong management experience to this critical industry leadership role. His record of success in overseeing day-to-day flight operations for one of the world’s largest airlines, along with his strategic planning work for the U.S. Air Force and established reputation for consensus building among his industry counterparts, combine to provide an optimal skill set for this vital industry role,” said ATA President and CEO James C. May. “I could not be more pleased that Tom is joining the ATA team of aviation professionals to provide direct leadership of our world-class technical experts.”
The ATA vice president of operations and safety position is central to advancing the airline industry’s well-deserved reputation for safety excellence while continually focusing on new and better ways to streamline system operations to improve efficiency for ATA member airlines. It demands a unique combination of strong goal orientation and leadership with an absolute commitment to constructive consensus development.
Hendricks will be leaving his position as director of line operations for Delta Air Lines in Atlanta.
“I am honored to join the strong team at ATA as a champion of the safest transportation system in the world. ATA’s ability to leverage the talent of its member airlines helps ensure that the U.S. air transport system will remain second to none,” said Capt. Hendricks. “It is an exciting time for the industry, particularly with significant structural changes to our aviation systems on the horizon. I look forward to helping provide leadership during this critical period.”
ATA airline members and their affiliates transport more than 90 percent of all U.S. airline passenger and cargo traffic. For more industry information, visit Air Transport Association Home.
Looks like there is some shifting going on.
Air Transport Association Names New Vice President of Operations and Safety
Capt. Tom Hendricks to Lead Industry Technical Team
NEWS RELEASE
WASHINGTON, April 26, 2010 – The Air Transport Association of America, Inc. (ATA), the industry trade organization for the leading U.S. airlines, today announced that Capt. Tom Hendricks will be joining the association as vice president of operations and safety, effective June 1.
In this role, Capt. Hendricks will assume all leadership responsibilities for the U.S. airline industry’s operations, safety, engineering and air traffic functions.
“Captain Hendricks brings a wealth of extremely valuable aviation expertise and strong management experience to this critical industry leadership role. His record of success in overseeing day-to-day flight operations for one of the world’s largest airlines, along with his strategic planning work for the U.S. Air Force and established reputation for consensus building among his industry counterparts, combine to provide an optimal skill set for this vital industry role,” said ATA President and CEO James C. May. “I could not be more pleased that Tom is joining the ATA team of aviation professionals to provide direct leadership of our world-class technical experts.”
The ATA vice president of operations and safety position is central to advancing the airline industry’s well-deserved reputation for safety excellence while continually focusing on new and better ways to streamline system operations to improve efficiency for ATA member airlines. It demands a unique combination of strong goal orientation and leadership with an absolute commitment to constructive consensus development.
Hendricks will be leaving his position as director of line operations for Delta Air Lines in Atlanta.
“I am honored to join the strong team at ATA as a champion of the safest transportation system in the world. ATA’s ability to leverage the talent of its member airlines helps ensure that the U.S. air transport system will remain second to none,” said Capt. Hendricks. “It is an exciting time for the industry, particularly with significant structural changes to our aviation systems on the horizon. I look forward to helping provide leadership during this critical period.”
ATA airline members and their affiliates transport more than 90 percent of all U.S. airline passenger and cargo traffic. For more industry information, visit Air Transport Association Home.
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