Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-25-2010, 07:35 AM
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04-25-2010, 07:35 AM
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88;
I would love to educate the public. To do that, you need to show them what you do. What you go though, and what is at stake. Even then most do not care.
Most expect their doctors to make a lot of money. Most assume you do to. Gaining sympathy from people saving for five year to go see Mickey could give to hoots it you make 140K versus 200K. They think you like their doctor are well paid and leave it at that.
Education would fix a lot, but who would be listening? People see you as a means to a end. Many are shocked at what I make, but then they move on to how expensive tickets are. That my friend is where the re-education needs to come. Reset consumer expectation on what the price of our service is. Then you can get paid what they think you already make. That is accomplished by higher prices on restricted capacity. Not all can fly, and that needs to be understood by both us and the public.
I would love to educate the public. To do that, you need to show them what you do. What you go though, and what is at stake. Even then most do not care.
Most expect their doctors to make a lot of money. Most assume you do to. Gaining sympathy from people saving for five year to go see Mickey could give to hoots it you make 140K versus 200K. They think you like their doctor are well paid and leave it at that.
Education would fix a lot, but who would be listening? People see you as a means to a end. Many are shocked at what I make, but then they move on to how expensive tickets are. That my friend is where the re-education needs to come. Reset consumer expectation on what the price of our service is. Then you can get paid what they think you already make. That is accomplished by higher prices on restricted capacity. Not all can fly, and that needs to be understood by both us and the public.
One of the things nobody talks about was the concept of paying guys $200K+ back in 2001 for guys to sit around and only fly one trip/month (I ran into a number of those guys who were 767 captains flying one trip/month on reserve). While everyone envies the SWA rates we need to remember everyone one of those guys earns that money by flying a lot. I remember seeing a study that said the average SWA pilot flies 60-65 hours/month while back then the average Legacy pilot was only flying 40-45 hours/month. I know that we are flying a lot more now than we did then (much more productive) but that is where it's going to stay. I do know that we should come up with a rate so that everyone (DC F/O to 777/747 Capt) makes a good wage based on crediting 70 hours/month. That is all 15-20% of the company that is on reserve can count on. I am also tired of counting on my per diem making up a significant portion (5-10%) of my paycheck when it should be used to pay for my travel expenses on the road.
04-25-2010, 08:16 AM
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Who dare passes overhead during the SEA supercross last night...
04-25-2010, 08:23 AM
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Johnso, that is and was my point. The ones that know what we are worth are us and the ones we negotiate against. They want us to agree to less than what that number is, and that is logical and we want to get paid more than we are worth. In the end becomes what our worth is.
I would love to march in Parades like the unionists in NYC do, handing out pies to the parade goers, but in our industry the paying public just does not care. 150K for a job not matter what the requirements for entry or to stay in it means little to someone who makes 50K, 100k, 150K, or a million a year. They vote or shop with their dollars. It comes down to capacity and now much we can logically charge for a ticket.
Pattern barging elevates the costs in any industry. It keeps the players in line. Yes, showing the will to strike or striking may get the ball rolling. A resolve of 12200 pilots does that too. Capacity constraint is good for all. More people want to fly with a finite product and a logical increase of that good ensues. Flooding the market with seats from debt burdened companies forces everyone's hand. Why? They need cash flow to pay the mortgage payment.
We have a given a very strong investment in this company. We want a return on that. We expect our Leaders to lead so that gains by labor and management are sustainable. To do that, we need to keep doing what we are doing and holding our leaders accountable. That is the best way to regain what we have lost. The traveling public will adapt if they want the product.
(On a side note, for far to long the air travel to Disney, HI et al was where the discounts were made to let Joe Public and his family take that dream vacation. Hotels etc did not suffer, we did. It is time to change that)
I would love to march in Parades like the unionists in NYC do, handing out pies to the parade goers, but in our industry the paying public just does not care. 150K for a job not matter what the requirements for entry or to stay in it means little to someone who makes 50K, 100k, 150K, or a million a year. They vote or shop with their dollars. It comes down to capacity and now much we can logically charge for a ticket.
Pattern barging elevates the costs in any industry. It keeps the players in line. Yes, showing the will to strike or striking may get the ball rolling. A resolve of 12200 pilots does that too. Capacity constraint is good for all. More people want to fly with a finite product and a logical increase of that good ensues. Flooding the market with seats from debt burdened companies forces everyone's hand. Why? They need cash flow to pay the mortgage payment.
We have a given a very strong investment in this company. We want a return on that. We expect our Leaders to lead so that gains by labor and management are sustainable. To do that, we need to keep doing what we are doing and holding our leaders accountable. That is the best way to regain what we have lost. The traveling public will adapt if they want the product.
(On a side note, for far to long the air travel to Disney, HI et al was where the discounts were made to let Joe Public and his family take that dream vacation. Hotels etc did not suffer, we did. It is time to change that)
Don't forget that inflation continues to march on. With "traditional" type increases to our pay rates, I just don't see how we are ever going to get back to the buying power that this career has traditionally afforded. At least not in any of our lifetimes.
Obviously, I don't agree with any of that. It just seems to be what I'm reading here as the consensus. Am I misunderstanding? If not, is our objective now something less than full restoration of this profession?
04-25-2010, 08:30 AM
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So, the consensus here seems to be that the traditional buying power of our profession is history? We will have to be satisfied with "pattern bargaining" our rates up a little at a time?
Don't forget that inflation continues to march on. With "traditional" type increases to our pay rates, I just don't see how we are ever going to get back to the buying power that this career has traditionally afforded. At least not in any of our lifetimes.
Obviously, I don't agree with any of that. It just seems to be what I'm reading here as the consensus. Am I misunderstanding? If not, is our objective now something less than full restoration of this profession?
Don't forget that inflation continues to march on. With "traditional" type increases to our pay rates, I just don't see how we are ever going to get back to the buying power that this career has traditionally afforded. At least not in any of our lifetimes.
Obviously, I don't agree with any of that. It just seems to be what I'm reading here as the consensus. Am I misunderstanding? If not, is our objective now something less than full restoration of this profession?
Until we get capacity down to help with pricing power we will have very little chance to restore this profession to where it once was. The days of buying a car with a months paycheck will most likely never return IMO. Inflation combined with a much higher cost of living and deregulation have really hosed us.
04-25-2010, 08:40 AM
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Are you a furlough bypass guy with the name of a former DAL base in Texas with Clydes beaver for an avatar and an old girlfriend with large underboob nicknamed Tomiguns???
That pic is a fake.....its never that sunny in Seattle!!!!
04-25-2010, 08:42 AM
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Capacity is down because of the economy and mergers, once the economy starts on an upward trend, the capacity will go back up. The airlines(marketing) can't help themselves, additionally there will be another group of new entrants. The boom bust cycle after dereg will continue. 
04-25-2010, 08:47 AM
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wow, that was really subliminal.. yes, that's me. I photoshopped the blue sky in there.
And your right, always raining, traffic stinks, not a waffle house for a thousand miles, and you can't drive on the lakes in the winter.
And your right, always raining, traffic stinks, not a waffle house for a thousand miles, and you can't drive on the lakes in the winter.
04-25-2010, 08:51 AM
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88;
I am not sure. But for us to demand X without the fundamentals changing will and achieving those demands will set up a repeat of history. IMO of course.
I do see fundamentals in the way we price our products changing. Two more mergers will allow this industry the margins that we had during our "hay days."
Can we get what we demand? Probably. Will it be sustainable? Maybe. If the fundamentals change and there is further consolidation? yes. We get what we want. We keep what we want, and build from there.
The LLC's picked the low hanging fruit and made a run last decade. Do we wish to set that up again? Maybe, but our businesses cannot be run like yesteryear. It is just not sustainable.
*Note:
I am not advocating a 10%, 20% restoration. I do not think we can at this time put a percentage on it. Next year, yes. I want restoration as much as the next guy. I will not be willing to trade something for pay.It has to build upon where we are. Horse trading is over.
Satisfied? Nope. I said a year ago we are looking at two contracts to get where we want to be. I want a short duration this time with preset raises and triggers for raises. I want a percentage or a cola after the amendable date. I want added DC contribution after the amendable date. I want a short agreement, LOA's that always build upon what we have. I do not see Section six as the end all. I see LOA's constantly improving our PWA. It allows section six for pay and other high cost items. Do that in 2012 so that we are in a new PWA in 2013 and then back at it in 2015 for a 2016 deal.
Does that means we sell ourselves short? Nope. It means we are logical and unified. Do the cost analysis of spending three years for 5-10%. If you forgo that and sign on you will always make more money long term than waiting.
It is not popular, but it is the truth.
In AMR's case there has been no movement either way. Ask yourself What is reality, and now that they are in three years of talks they could have been rational gotten a modest gain, which our JPWA could have built on, they would be coming back to the table next year and quickly built on that, and then us. Which way yields more to my pocket book? I know the answer.
I am not sure. But for us to demand X without the fundamentals changing will and achieving those demands will set up a repeat of history. IMO of course.
I do see fundamentals in the way we price our products changing. Two more mergers will allow this industry the margins that we had during our "hay days."
Can we get what we demand? Probably. Will it be sustainable? Maybe. If the fundamentals change and there is further consolidation? yes. We get what we want. We keep what we want, and build from there.
The LLC's picked the low hanging fruit and made a run last decade. Do we wish to set that up again? Maybe, but our businesses cannot be run like yesteryear. It is just not sustainable.
*Note:
I am not advocating a 10%, 20% restoration. I do not think we can at this time put a percentage on it. Next year, yes. I want restoration as much as the next guy. I will not be willing to trade something for pay.It has to build upon where we are. Horse trading is over.
Satisfied? Nope. I said a year ago we are looking at two contracts to get where we want to be. I want a short duration this time with preset raises and triggers for raises. I want a percentage or a cola after the amendable date. I want added DC contribution after the amendable date. I want a short agreement, LOA's that always build upon what we have. I do not see Section six as the end all. I see LOA's constantly improving our PWA. It allows section six for pay and other high cost items. Do that in 2012 so that we are in a new PWA in 2013 and then back at it in 2015 for a 2016 deal.
Does that means we sell ourselves short? Nope. It means we are logical and unified. Do the cost analysis of spending three years for 5-10%. If you forgo that and sign on you will always make more money long term than waiting.
It is not popular, but it is the truth.
In AMR's case there has been no movement either way. Ask yourself What is reality, and now that they are in three years of talks they could have been rational gotten a modest gain, which our JPWA could have built on, they would be coming back to the table next year and quickly built on that, and then us. Which way yields more to my pocket book? I know the answer.
04-25-2010, 08:57 AM
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Posts: 496
DAL 88,
I hardly think it's reasonable to suggest C2K provided 'traditional' buying power. I think we all expect substantial gains in 2012, but to expect restoration to C2K levels just doesn't seem reasonable. We live and work in a drastically different world than existed 10 years ago. We can only negotiate succesfully if we have the will to do our part, but it takes more than just a strong-willed, unified pilot group. This has already been stated by numerous people here, in numerous ways, but while I don't care to change your mind on the issue, I do think the concensus is that we need to look forward and not waste energy trying to ressurect a very brief, but admittedly glorious, part of our history.
I hardly think it's reasonable to suggest C2K provided 'traditional' buying power. I think we all expect substantial gains in 2012, but to expect restoration to C2K levels just doesn't seem reasonable. We live and work in a drastically different world than existed 10 years ago. We can only negotiate succesfully if we have the will to do our part, but it takes more than just a strong-willed, unified pilot group. This has already been stated by numerous people here, in numerous ways, but while I don't care to change your mind on the issue, I do think the concensus is that we need to look forward and not waste energy trying to ressurect a very brief, but admittedly glorious, part of our history.
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