Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-25-2010, 05:09 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
scambo,
I agree with everything you said, and I apologize to 88 if I was overly dismissive. Let me try to summarize my views:
1. History is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what we used to make. Our future rate will be a function of the economy, the airline's health, the rest of the industry's pilot rates, and pilot unity. Nothing more. Life's not fair.
2. We will never get sympathy from the traveling public. It's naive to think anything different. The regionals are another story.
3. We will never get sympathy or support from the other employee groups, and I don't care.
4. I agree with 88 that the quality of pilots entering this profession will go down. That will impact safety. But as acl points out, we're at least 10 years away from that affecting the majors, and by then it will be too late. But no one in management has the foresight to avoid this approaching calamity. I am deeply troubled by where this industry is heading, but don't believe we can stop it.
5. And here's the most depressing part. Our job is still an enjoyable job, and there will never be a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts to do it. Thus, market forces and supply/demand will always work against us. Just look at the regionals. The fact that so many pilots are willingly going to work every day at those rates continues to amaze me. And until that stops, there will forevermore be downward pressure on the rates at the majors, as well as scope battles.
Sorry for the depressing words. Those are just my two cents, based on my 20+ years in the industry. Wish I was wrong.
I agree with everything you said, and I apologize to 88 if I was overly dismissive. Let me try to summarize my views:
1. History is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what we used to make. Our future rate will be a function of the economy, the airline's health, the rest of the industry's pilot rates, and pilot unity. Nothing more. Life's not fair.
2. We will never get sympathy from the traveling public. It's naive to think anything different. The regionals are another story.
3. We will never get sympathy or support from the other employee groups, and I don't care.
4. I agree with 88 that the quality of pilots entering this profession will go down. That will impact safety. But as acl points out, we're at least 10 years away from that affecting the majors, and by then it will be too late. But no one in management has the foresight to avoid this approaching calamity. I am deeply troubled by where this industry is heading, but don't believe we can stop it.
5. And here's the most depressing part. Our job is still an enjoyable job, and there will never be a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts to do it. Thus, market forces and supply/demand will always work against us. Just look at the regionals. The fact that so many pilots are willingly going to work every day at those rates continues to amaze me. And until that stops, there will forevermore be downward pressure on the rates at the majors, as well as scope battles.
Sorry for the depressing words. Those are just my two cents, based on my 20+ years in the industry. Wish I was wrong.
PG;
I do think that a few minor changes will stop the train wreck. If the ALPA min proposals make it to law, that is one. If the MPL is truly deal, that is another. If negligence and liability are attached to a mainline carrier due to a regional or third party operators actions, this industry will change in an instant.
Given the mindset of the judges etc, It would not surprise me in the least to see the later sometime in the next 10 years.
Add to this; Those pesky financial markets, banks and financiers. They do not like taking the risk on a civilian loan for piloting. That alone will make it very difficult for people to lay 250K, and come in this industry. They first have to find a sucker to finance their dreams.
Looking at were this industry is going 30 plus years after deregulation, I beleive that a few predictions may come true. If CAL and UAUA merge, then AMR and someone (LLC, Jet Blue) merge, SWA will buy AAI and we will have four power houses in the US market. Airlines that are not part of some of this will not be able to compete. It will on many levels rationalize this industry in terms of debt financing, labor wages, prices, and margins. I for one think in the end consolidation will be go for the Joe Pilots like you and I.
04-25-2010, 05:16 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Apology accepted.
You don't think we have any moral or professional responsibility to try and stop it?
Well, that is pretty depressing. Except the part about the job being enjoyable... I completely agree with you there. I don't agree that the market forces and supply/demand will always work against us. The public doesn't have much of an appetite for aviation disasters with fatalities. If it's true that lower quality pilots impact safety, then it's also true that this will result in fatal accidents (if it hasn't already). That has the potential to affect "market forces" and the market value of pilots considerably. It seems to me that we should do everything we can to positively affect our market value and to enhance aviation safety. I think we have a moral and professional responsibility to do that. Sitting silent or just resigning ourselves to "the inevitable" just doesn't seem right to me.
4. I agree with 88 that the quality of pilots entering this profession will go down. That will impact safety. But as acl points out, we're at least 10 years away from that affecting the majors, and by then it will be too late. But no one in management has the foresight to avoid this approaching calamity. I am deeply troubled by where this industry is heading, but don't believe we can stop it.
5. And here's the most depressing part. Our job is still an enjoyable job, and there will never be a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts to do it. Thus, market forces and supply/demand will always work against us. Just look at the regionals. The fact that so many pilots are willingly going to work every day at those rates continues to amaze me. And until that stops, there will forevermore be downward pressure on the rates at the majors, as well as scope battles.
Sorry for the depressing words. Those are just my two cents, based on my 20+ years in the industry. Wish I was wrong.
Sorry for the depressing words. Those are just my two cents, based on my 20+ years in the industry. Wish I was wrong.
04-25-2010, 05:26 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
88;
I agree and that is why I think the Education Committee in ALPA is a good way to start. Fill out the form they sent last week and submit it. If you feel it is a professional obligation to educate the future pilots, this is a great way to have a hand in it.
I agree and that is why I think the Education Committee in ALPA is a good way to start. Fill out the form they sent last week and submit it. If you feel it is a professional obligation to educate the future pilots, this is a great way to have a hand in it.
04-25-2010, 05:36 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Good point. This certainly would fit into the overall big picture. But I think it's infinitely more important to educate the public about this. To my way of thinking, that has the greatest potential to solve the problem.
04-25-2010, 05:47 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
88;
I would love to educate the public. To do that, you need to show them what you do. What you go though, and what is at stake. Even then most do not care.
Most expect their doctors to make a lot of money. Most assume you do to. Gaining sympathy from people saving for five year to go see Mickey could give to hoots it you make 140K versus 200K. They think you like their doctor are well paid and leave it at that.
Education would fix a lot, but who would be listening? People see you as a means to a end. Many are shocked at what I make, but then they move on to how expensive tickets are. That my friend is where the re-education needs to come. Reset consumer expectation on what the price of our service is. Then you can get paid what they think you already make. That is accomplished by higher prices on restricted capacity. Not all can fly, and that needs to be understood by both us and the public.
I would love to educate the public. To do that, you need to show them what you do. What you go though, and what is at stake. Even then most do not care.
Most expect their doctors to make a lot of money. Most assume you do to. Gaining sympathy from people saving for five year to go see Mickey could give to hoots it you make 140K versus 200K. They think you like their doctor are well paid and leave it at that.
Education would fix a lot, but who would be listening? People see you as a means to a end. Many are shocked at what I make, but then they move on to how expensive tickets are. That my friend is where the re-education needs to come. Reset consumer expectation on what the price of our service is. Then you can get paid what they think you already make. That is accomplished by higher prices on restricted capacity. Not all can fly, and that needs to be understood by both us and the public.
04-25-2010, 05:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
Education would fix a lot, but who would be listening? People see you as a means to a end. Many are shocked at what I make, but then they move on to how expensive tickets are. That my friend is where the re-education needs to come. Reset consumer expectation on what the price of our service is. Then you can get paid what they think you already make. That is accomplished by higher prices on restricted capacity. Not all can fly, and that needs to be understood by both us and the public.
TICKET PRICES ARE CHEAPER THAN THEY WERE 30 YEARS AGO!!!!! Yes, I'm yelling. I'm just frustrated at the Walmartization of the world. Even if we educated people on this fact, know one would care. They will just get on the internet and look for their next cheap fare to grandma's house.
04-25-2010, 05:59 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
88;
I would love to educate the public. To do that, you need to show them what you do. What you go though, and what is at stake. Even then most do not care.
Most expect their doctors to make a lot of money. Most assume you do to. Gaining sympathy from people saving for five year to go see Mickey could give to hoots it you make 140K versus 200K. They think you like their doctor are well paid and leave it at that.
I would love to educate the public. To do that, you need to show them what you do. What you go though, and what is at stake. Even then most do not care.
Most expect their doctors to make a lot of money. Most assume you do to. Gaining sympathy from people saving for five year to go see Mickey could give to hoots it you make 140K versus 200K. They think you like their doctor are well paid and leave it at that.
Reset consumer expectation on what the price of our service is. Then you can get paid what they think you already make. That is accomplished by higher prices on restricted capacity. Not all can fly, and that needs to be understood by both us and the public.
04-25-2010, 06:04 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
88;
Unless ticket prices go up, all of the education in the world will do nothing. No one is going to go demand that they pay more for their airfare. Last time I checked no one demanded to pay more for a surgery. Each doctor is compensated at a negotiated discount and or the going rate.
Each chest cracker makes about 5K a open heart surgery. No kidding. Now they have to pay all of the office fees off of that. The OR is about 40K before the discounts. It is a going rate. If they are in your health care network, good or bad they get what the rate is or what the market bears.
Ugly. But the truth.
Unless ticket prices go up, all of the education in the world will do nothing. No one is going to go demand that they pay more for their airfare. Last time I checked no one demanded to pay more for a surgery. Each doctor is compensated at a negotiated discount and or the going rate.
Each chest cracker makes about 5K a open heart surgery. No kidding. Now they have to pay all of the office fees off of that. The OR is about 40K before the discounts. It is a going rate. If they are in your health care network, good or bad they get what the rate is or what the market bears.
Ugly. But the truth.
04-25-2010, 06:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
We've been ignoring Japan and the Guam rumors for too long. Here's something to ponder---
Japanese islanders stage mass rally against US base.
YOMITAN, Japan (AFP) – Nearly 100,000 protesters attended a rally on Okinawa Sunday to demonstrate against a US air base in a row that is dominating Japan's national politics and souring its ties with Washington.
Okinawa governor Hirokazu Nakaima, the speaker of the Okinawa assembly and most of the mayors of the Okinawa prefecture's 41 towns joined the huge protest near Kadena Air Base, the Asia-Pacific region's largest US military facility.
Under a blazing sun at an athletics ground on the subtropical island, protesters applauded and whistled as speakers addressed them from a podium.
Demonstrators held yellow banners with messages protesting against the US military presence, including: "No Base!" and "US bases leave Okinawa!"
The row centres on US Marine Corps Air Station Futenma, which under a 2006 pact with Washington was to be moved from the crowded city of Ginowan to the quieter coastal Henoko area of Okinawa.
Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama, whose party won September's general election by a landslide, has said he will review the 2006 deal and move Futenma off Okinawa island. But a search for alternative locations has provoked more local protests.
"We want Prime Minister Hatoyama to keep to his pledge, especially on the (relocation) of the Futenma air base," Nakaima said to loud applause at Sunday's rally.
"Okinawa has suffered the overwhelmingly heavy burden of US bases since the end of the war" in 1945, he said. "Today, there are few traces of the war in Okinawa. But US bases still remain in front of us. This is so unfair."
Many of the islanders resent the heavy US military presence on Okinawa, a legacy of Japan's defeat in World War II, and complain of noise, pollution and friction with US soldiers.
The issue of relocating US bases threatens Hatoyama's political future, with the prime minister caught between Washington and his left-leaning political allies in the dispute.
"Prime Minister Hatoyama has raised strong hopes among Okinawans," said Zenshin Takamine, the Okinawa assembly's speaker, demanding that Hatoyama to keep his promise.
"Okinawans cannot bear the burden of US bases anymore," he said. "With the governor's participation in this rally, Okinawa's voice is united. We say 'no' to Futenma base!"
Hatoyama has set himself a deadline of late May to resolve the issue but, since he came to power in September, the United States has not dropped its insistence that Tokyo to stick to the original relocation plan.
On Friday, under questioning from a conservative lawmaker, Hatoyama staked his job on finding a solution by the time his deadline expires.
The premier's right hand man, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hirofumi Hirano, told Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) that he "sincerely" accepted opinions of Okinawa residents.
"We sincerely accept (opinions at) the gathering," Hirano told the national network. "By hearing voices of the island residents, we will work hard to draft a good plan of the government."
Ahead of crucial upper house elections due in July, Hatoyama has seen his approval ratings dive as criticism of his dithering on the issue has grown.
The United States established the Futenma base in 1945 after it occupied Okinawa following some of World War II's bloodiest battles.
It did not return Okinawa to Japan until 1972 and still operates more than 30 military facilities on the island, strategically located near China, Taiwan and the Korean peninsula.
Under the 2006 agreement, Futenma facilities will be moved to reclaimed land around Camp Schwab in Henoko and about 8,000 Marines will move to the US territory of Guam.
More than 70 percent of US military facilities in Japan -- along with more than half of the 47,000 US troops stationed there -- are located in Okinawa.
Japanese islanders stage mass rally against US base.
YOMITAN, Japan (AFP) – Nearly 100,000 protesters attended a rally on Okinawa Sunday to demonstrate against a US air base in a row that is dominating Japan's national politics and souring its ties with Washington.
Okinawa governor Hirokazu Nakaima, the speaker of the Okinawa assembly and most of the mayors of the Okinawa prefecture's 41 towns joined the huge protest near Kadena Air Base, the Asia-Pacific region's largest US military facility.
Under a blazing sun at an athletics ground on the subtropical island, protesters applauded and whistled as speakers addressed them from a podium.
Demonstrators held yellow banners with messages protesting against the US military presence, including: "No Base!" and "US bases leave Okinawa!"
The row centres on US Marine Corps Air Station Futenma, which under a 2006 pact with Washington was to be moved from the crowded city of Ginowan to the quieter coastal Henoko area of Okinawa.
Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama, whose party won September's general election by a landslide, has said he will review the 2006 deal and move Futenma off Okinawa island. But a search for alternative locations has provoked more local protests.
"We want Prime Minister Hatoyama to keep to his pledge, especially on the (relocation) of the Futenma air base," Nakaima said to loud applause at Sunday's rally.
"Okinawa has suffered the overwhelmingly heavy burden of US bases since the end of the war" in 1945, he said. "Today, there are few traces of the war in Okinawa. But US bases still remain in front of us. This is so unfair."
Many of the islanders resent the heavy US military presence on Okinawa, a legacy of Japan's defeat in World War II, and complain of noise, pollution and friction with US soldiers.
The issue of relocating US bases threatens Hatoyama's political future, with the prime minister caught between Washington and his left-leaning political allies in the dispute.
"Prime Minister Hatoyama has raised strong hopes among Okinawans," said Zenshin Takamine, the Okinawa assembly's speaker, demanding that Hatoyama to keep his promise.
"Okinawans cannot bear the burden of US bases anymore," he said. "With the governor's participation in this rally, Okinawa's voice is united. We say 'no' to Futenma base!"
Hatoyama has set himself a deadline of late May to resolve the issue but, since he came to power in September, the United States has not dropped its insistence that Tokyo to stick to the original relocation plan.
On Friday, under questioning from a conservative lawmaker, Hatoyama staked his job on finding a solution by the time his deadline expires.
The premier's right hand man, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hirofumi Hirano, told Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) that he "sincerely" accepted opinions of Okinawa residents.
"We sincerely accept (opinions at) the gathering," Hirano told the national network. "By hearing voices of the island residents, we will work hard to draft a good plan of the government."
Ahead of crucial upper house elections due in July, Hatoyama has seen his approval ratings dive as criticism of his dithering on the issue has grown.
The United States established the Futenma base in 1945 after it occupied Okinawa following some of World War II's bloodiest battles.
It did not return Okinawa to Japan until 1972 and still operates more than 30 military facilities on the island, strategically located near China, Taiwan and the Korean peninsula.
Under the 2006 agreement, Futenma facilities will be moved to reclaimed land around Camp Schwab in Henoko and about 8,000 Marines will move to the US territory of Guam.
More than 70 percent of US military facilities in Japan -- along with more than half of the 47,000 US troops stationed there -- are located in Okinawa.
04-25-2010, 06:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Well, I'll bet that they would care if their doctor was being grossly underpaid... especially if you're talking something like major surgery. I don't see any difference with us. We are still holding their lives in our hands and they know it, just the same as with a surgeon....
My final point is I agree with you 100%......EXCEPT, the traveling public will never consider current mainline wages ($150k-$200k for Captain) as "grossly underpaid".
They just won't. IMO.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
