Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-24-2010, 01:39 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
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You're right, in the current environment, I don't think its possible.
OK - so to paraphrase you, your objective is full restoration, meaning a 100% pay raise (73% plus 8 years of inflation) and I assume also full restoration of our DB pension?
If APA has been stonewalled for 3 years with no improvements any where in sight, and they're only asking for 50%, just how do you propose for us to get 100% two years from now? I really want to know your strategy. Honestly.
BTW, wishing is not a strategy.
OK - so to paraphrase you, your objective is full restoration, meaning a 100% pay raise (73% plus 8 years of inflation) and I assume also full restoration of our DB pension?
Aren't you the one I responded to yesterday when we were discussing how our current retirement setup is actually better than a DB pension? Did you read my post?
If APA has been stonewalled for 3 years with no improvements any where in sight, and they're only asking for 50%, just how do you propose for us to get 100% two years from now? I really want to know your strategy. Honestly.
BTW, wishing is not a strategy.
1. We have to make the case that our profession is now being compensated at grossly inappropriate levels and that it will ultimately affect safety. You simply cannot pay 1/2 for something and expect to continue to get the same quality. IMO, our profession is currently coasting on the caliber of individuals who are already in the profession. While there are certainly some exceptions, I can't imagine that the quality (in general) of individuals who are just now deciding to pursue a career as an airline pilot could be anywhere near the quality of what this profession has typically attracted. If this was brought to the attention of the traveling public and public officials, I think there would be a groundswell of support for us in our negotiations instead of the bad press we always get. Just look at the traction all the Colgan stories got a few months ago. But this isn't something that can be done halfway. It's going to require a commitment of some serious resources and effort.
2. We have to make it clear (especially to management) that our expectations are for full restoration and that we are intensely focused on that as our objective. Right now, I believe management has no expectation of anything like restoration for our pilot group. I also believe our strategy over the past few years has helped them to have that expectation and even lowered the expectations of many in our pilot group.
I'm not an expert on strategy or negotiations. I'm sure it's more complicated and there are more things that need to be done than what I wrote above. I only submit that as a starting point. The one thing I know for sure is that, if we do not set high goals, we will not make any kind of significant progress towards restoration. It sounds to me like you've basically given up on restoration and resigned yourself to the idea that this profession is just always going to be worth substantially less than it traditionally has been. You're certainly entitled to think about it any way you want. I'm just not willing to give up on it that easily.
04-24-2010, 01:42 PM
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
04-24-2010, 01:51 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
You missed the TIC!! Scoop and I were making fun of the topic
Ferd <----------long time and frequent customer of the NRT laundry ladies
PS I think that is how they do it (what you said). I've heard of guys getting called because they turned in too many items too early in the trip (no I'm not kidding). So, there is an audit of some type of what is turned in.
PPS I heard it was a pilot (hint, also famous for eating all the crew meals on a whale while jumpseating up to ANC) that was busted for the curtains
But, I agree, I'm sure it's an urban legend.
Last edited by Ferd149; 04-24-2010 at 02:11 PM.
04-24-2010, 01:59 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
DHS regulations require that prior to ANY training event, whether part 141, 121, 135, or 63(?), the identity of the trainee and their legality to recieve training has to be determined through either a passport and or green card or other accepted means. (See Hoserpilot's post. http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/801165-post35769.html ) Passports are issued by the Federal Govt whereas an airline ID is not. The regulation goes far beyond just airlines.
04-24-2010, 02:15 PM
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
It is most likely encompassed in a regulation which is in some book somewhere which no one can see because it is "Need to Know." That's how the DHS rolls.
04-24-2010, 02:36 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
DHS regulations require that prior to ANY training event, whether part 141, 121, 135, or 63(?), the identity of the trainee and their legality to recieve training has to be determined through either a passport and or green card or other accepted means. (See Hoserpilot's post. http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/801165-post35769.html ) Passports are issued by the Federal Govt whereas an airline ID is not. The regulation goes far beyond just airlines.
04-24-2010, 02:45 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Well that's the hard part, isn't it? It's always easier said than done. Here are some things that I think are important in developing a strategy for full restoration:
1. We have to make the case that our profession is now being compensated at grossly inappropriate levels and that it will ultimately affect safety. You simply cannot pay 1/2 for something and expect to continue to get the same quality. IMO, our profession is currently coasting on the caliber of individuals who are already in the profession. While there are certainly some exceptions, I can't imagine that the quality (in general) of individuals who are just now deciding to pursue a career as an airline pilot could be anywhere near the quality of what this profession has typically attracted. If this was brought to the attention of the traveling public and public officials, I think there would be a groundswell of support for us in our negotiations instead of the bad press we always get. Just look at the traction all the Colgan stories got a few months ago. But this isn't something that can be done halfway. It's going to require a commitment of some serious resources and effort.
2. We have to make it clear (especially to management) that our expectations are for full restoration and that we are intensely focused on that as our objective. Right now, I believe management has no expectation of anything like restoration for our pilot group. I also believe our strategy over the past few years has helped them to have that expectation and even lowered the expectations of many in our pilot group.
I'm not an expert on strategy or negotiations. I'm sure it's more complicated and there are more things that need to be done than what I wrote above. I only submit that as a starting point. The one thing I know for sure is that, if we do not set high goals, we will not make any kind of significant progress towards restoration. It sounds to me like you've basically given up on restoration and resigned yourself to the idea that this profession is just always going to be worth substantially less than it traditionally has been. You're certainly entitled to think about it any way you want. I'm just not willing to give up on it that easily.
1. We have to make the case that our profession is now being compensated at grossly inappropriate levels and that it will ultimately affect safety. You simply cannot pay 1/2 for something and expect to continue to get the same quality. IMO, our profession is currently coasting on the caliber of individuals who are already in the profession. While there are certainly some exceptions, I can't imagine that the quality (in general) of individuals who are just now deciding to pursue a career as an airline pilot could be anywhere near the quality of what this profession has typically attracted. If this was brought to the attention of the traveling public and public officials, I think there would be a groundswell of support for us in our negotiations instead of the bad press we always get. Just look at the traction all the Colgan stories got a few months ago. But this isn't something that can be done halfway. It's going to require a commitment of some serious resources and effort.
2. We have to make it clear (especially to management) that our expectations are for full restoration and that we are intensely focused on that as our objective. Right now, I believe management has no expectation of anything like restoration for our pilot group. I also believe our strategy over the past few years has helped them to have that expectation and even lowered the expectations of many in our pilot group.
I'm not an expert on strategy or negotiations. I'm sure it's more complicated and there are more things that need to be done than what I wrote above. I only submit that as a starting point. The one thing I know for sure is that, if we do not set high goals, we will not make any kind of significant progress towards restoration. It sounds to me like you've basically given up on restoration and resigned yourself to the idea that this profession is just always going to be worth substantially less than it traditionally has been. You're certainly entitled to think about it any way you want. I'm just not willing to give up on it that easily.
The issue as stated in the investor call with Apry a few days ago is simple. They are stalling their talks with APA to see where the new cost line is draw as it pertains to CAL and then us. They do not want their pilots too far out ahead of the rest of the pack. It goes back to the theory of "Jacking the house up" that has been used since the first days of ALPA. No airline is going to be willing to do what we want or demand, or what ALPA or CAL is demanding until each other sees that at least one other airline is willing to sign on the line.
Using that logic is what got us C2K. (UAL +1%) If CAL has a significant gain which I beleive they may, and APA jumps above that, our talks may bear the fruit that would be lush and nice; a C2K+. If they settle for DAL+one dollar it is going to be increasingly difficult to get anywhere near that. It all comes down to where the costs for the industry are when we open.
I know you know this. Yes, we want our return on our investment back. We want better scheduling, pay, work rules et al. No kidding. What we are able to gain depends on CAL and UAL. If they can improve on our current PWA, then the may be a logical next step to exactly what you, I and 12200 other Delta pilots want.
I say pressure all of your CAL buddies to get a great contract that is signed NLT 12.31.2010, and APA to sign an improvement on that NLT 12.31.2011. If that happens, we stand a much better chance.
I want what you want, but realize that a few pieces need to come in to play. Not Airline CEO is going to put pilot costs in the area that would be do 1.5-2 times what its competitors have. That is just the pita reality.
04-24-2010, 03:41 PM
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[QUOTE=acl65pilot;801245]I beleive that they are well aware of what we want. I am sure we will make that clear as well.
I agree that they are well aware of what we want. Everyone always wants more money. But does management understand that our expectations are to get back to the kind of compensation that a career at Delta Air Lines provided when we hired on? I don't think so. I think that just about everything we have done in the last few years has sent the signal that we have accepted our current compensation as some kind of new baseline from which we would negotiate traditional type improvements. I don't think our management has any expectation or really even thinks this pilot group has the expectation of full restoration. Like I said before, I'm not an expert at negotiations but this seems to me like a very poor position from which to start negotiating. I believe we need to start setting the tone for this now, or it's going to work against us big time.
The issue as stated in the investor call with Apry a few days ago is simple. They are stalling their talks with APA to see where the new cost line is draw as it pertains to CAL and then us. They do not want their pilots too far out ahead of the rest of the pack.There is no rule in business that states the costs of an employee group at one company have to equal the costs of the respective employee group at another company. In fact, some very successful companies in the past have considered paying more for employees and taking good care of their employees (and therefore getting the best, most highly motivated people working for them) to be a competitive advantage. You want to talk about "synergies"! There are many intangibles that positively effect the success of a company when you have a highly motivated, loyal, and well managed workforce taking care of your customers. It's not always (or even often) something a bean counter can quantify. (And that's why it's a mistake to have bean counters as CEO's, Presidents, etc. Leave the bean counting to the financial types. You need talented management with exceptional leadership qualities running a company. But I digress.) Now, under normal circumstances, you don't want to be too far out of line with pilot costs at your company versus pilot costs at your competitors. But these are not normal circumstances. All pilot groups in this industry (with possibly the exception of SWA) are being compensated far below the expectation that has been set for this profession for decades. Additionally, when you look at pilot costs in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make as much difference to the bottom line as one might think. I know that APA has a chart showing AA's CASM with and without their suggested 50% pay restoration. If I remember correctly, I think it made a difference of about 1/2 cent.
04-24-2010, 03:55 PM
No longer cares
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Position: 767er Captain
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04-24-2010, 04:01 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
I say pressure all of your CAL buddies to get a great contract that is signed NLT 12.31.2010, and APA to sign an improvement on that NLT 12.31.2011. If that happens, we stand a much better chance.
I want what you want, but realize that a few pieces need to come in to play. No Airline CEO is going to put pilot costs in the area that would be do 1.5-2 times what its competitors have. That is just the pita reality.
I want what you want, but realize that a few pieces need to come in to play. No Airline CEO is going to put pilot costs in the area that would be do 1.5-2 times what its competitors have. That is just the pita reality.
Meanwhile, here is what other's think is the solution:
And....
We need to tell management what our product is worth and they can find a way to pay for it. That is not our problem. We should not price our product on what they say they have, we should tell them what it costs. They can raise the ticket prices a couple of bucks and pay for everything we want. Why sell yourself short and fight their argument?
And...
We have to make the case that our profession is now being compensated at grossly inappropriate levels and that it will ultimately affect safety. You simply cannot pay 1/2 for something and expect to continue to get the same quality... We have to make it clear (especially to management) that our expectations are for full restoration and that we are intensely focused on that as our objective.
So, on one side is acl, who believes in pattern bargaining.
And on the other side, are Cap'n Crunch and DAL 88 Driver who believe we simply set our price (C2K + inflation, apparently), tell management to figure out how to pay for it, and somehow convince the traveling public that a $200,000 777 Captain is only being paid half what he's worth, and they better pay the Captain double or they might die on their flight to London.
Good luck with that strategy. I just don't buy it.
Last edited by Pineapple Guy; 04-24-2010 at 04:26 PM.
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