Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-24-2010, 09:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Their balance sheet is made by wizards in accounting who can make the black turn red. We need to tell management what our product is worth and they can find a way to pay for it. That is not our problem. We should not price our product on what they say they have, we should tell them what it costs. They can raise the ticket prices a couple of bucks and pay for everything we want. Why sell yourself short and fight their argument?
We seem to be acting like a whipped dog. We come to the negotiating table with our head hung low and our tail between our legs. Ridiculous.
For the sake of ALL of us, please get in there and make it happen. I'm looking forward to the 50% raise you can deliver so easily.
04-24-2010, 09:30 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
If you are willing to set the ceiling before we even sit down to the table, then yes there is nothing more for us to say.
Their balance sheet is made by wizards in accounting who can make the black turn red. We need to tell management what our product is worth and they can find a way to pay for it. That is not our problem. We should not price our product on what they say they have, we should tell them what it costs. They can raise the ticket prices a couple of bucks and pay for everything we want. Why sell yourself short and fight their argument?
We seem to be acting like a whipped dog. We come to the negotiating table with our head hung low and our tail between our legs. Ridiculous.
Their balance sheet is made by wizards in accounting who can make the black turn red. We need to tell management what our product is worth and they can find a way to pay for it. That is not our problem. We should not price our product on what they say they have, we should tell them what it costs. They can raise the ticket prices a couple of bucks and pay for everything we want. Why sell yourself short and fight their argument?
We seem to be acting like a whipped dog. We come to the negotiating table with our head hung low and our tail between our legs. Ridiculous.
As you point out, the difference between what they want to pay us and full restoration is probably just a few bucks per ticket. Let management figure out how to pay for pilots, just the same as they have to figure out how to pay for fuel when oil prices go up. This is the perspective I want the people negotiating on my behalf to have.
04-24-2010, 10:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
I agree. It seems that too many of us have lost perspective on exactly how far this profession has fallen. For example, we took a 42% pay cut. It would take a 73% pay increase just to restore back to the rates from which we started. Now, factor in inflation from the time we took the cuts to the time our new contract becomes effective, and it will take a lot more than a 73% pay increase to actually restore our buying power. And that's just one piece of the "pie". We also lost our pension and had thousands of our jobs outsourced.
As you point out, the difference between what they want to pay us and full restoration is probably just a few bucks per ticket. Let management figure out how to pay for pilots, just the same as they have to figure out how to pay for fuel when oil prices go up. This is the perspective I want the people negotiating on my behalf to have.
As you point out, the difference between what they want to pay us and full restoration is probably just a few bucks per ticket. Let management figure out how to pay for pilots, just the same as they have to figure out how to pay for fuel when oil prices go up. This is the perspective I want the people negotiating on my behalf to have.
04-24-2010, 10:45 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Hey I want that. We have a tall order to fill then. We got 17% off the JPWA not we need to take care of the rest!
I digress. Captain. As soon as we put our proposal across the table, we have limited the top end. That is the finite amount that we will get.
I digress. Captain. As soon as we put our proposal across the table, we have limited the top end. That is the finite amount that we will get.
04-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
So do we shoot for the stars right off the bat? Seems to have failed APA so far. But if we don't do so, will we ever get more then our initial request?
This is going to be a really tough contract IMO. With such a large pilot group there are a lot of different pilots who want a lot of different things. The one thing I think we need to be careful of is getting the wool pulled over our eyes. Some guys are so hungry to see $$$ I fear they may overlook other things that are hidden in the details. I sure hope our NC makes sure to keep those bear traps out of any TA's.
This is going to be a really tough contract IMO. With such a large pilot group there are a lot of different pilots who want a lot of different things. The one thing I think we need to be careful of is getting the wool pulled over our eyes. Some guys are so hungry to see $$$ I fear they may overlook other things that are hidden in the details. I sure hope our NC makes sure to keep those bear traps out of any TA's.
04-24-2010, 11:01 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
That is why LOA's with fixes in 23, 12 and the like are great. They will allow the big items to be dealt with in Section 6.
Also, that is why the MEC and your reps sift though all of the wants, input et al, and come up with needs, and wants and then prioritizes them. Yep, it upsets people, but that is their job. It generally is not fun nor popular. Someone always is going to be let down.
That said, we all know job protections should always be number one!
Also, that is why the MEC and your reps sift though all of the wants, input et al, and come up with needs, and wants and then prioritizes them. Yep, it upsets people, but that is their job. It generally is not fun nor popular. Someone always is going to be let down.
That said, we all know job protections should always be number one!
04-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
To make the pie bigger the company needs to get more efficent. Better revenue tracking, IROPS software, much more efficent flight planning system, better manuals (less training), relocation of emergency equipment etc, etc. Bedrock needs to change. Done ranting.
04-24-2010, 11:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
If you are willing to set the ceiling before we even sit down to the table, then yes there is nothing more for us to say.
Their balance sheet is made by wizards in accounting who can make the black turn red. We need to tell management what our product is worth and they can find a way to pay for it. That is not our problem. We should not price our product on what they say they have, we should tell them what it costs. They can raise the ticket prices a couple of bucks and pay for everything we want. Why sell yourself short and fight their argument?
We seem to be acting like a whipped dog. We come to the negotiating table with our head hung low and our tail between our legs. Ridiculous.
Their balance sheet is made by wizards in accounting who can make the black turn red. We need to tell management what our product is worth and they can find a way to pay for it. That is not our problem. We should not price our product on what they say they have, we should tell them what it costs. They can raise the ticket prices a couple of bucks and pay for everything we want. Why sell yourself short and fight their argument?
We seem to be acting like a whipped dog. We come to the negotiating table with our head hung low and our tail between our legs. Ridiculous.
Look, Capn, I will guarantee you that I have spent thousands (yes thousands) of hours more than you sitting in a strike center trying to help rally the leverage of the power of the pilot group to make the pie bigger. I don't really need any lectures from you about toughness or pushing management. Been there, done that, got the coffee mug to prove it.
If we are going to achieve our goals, the pilots need to understand the process as well as possible so we can work in a systematic fashion to achieve our goals. One part of that process is establishing a priority system for setting those goals. If you agree that a billion dollars per hour pay rate for a whale is probably not going to fly, and if you agree that minimum wage is not going to fly, then you have to decide on a figure somewhere between those two. How do you arrive at that number? How does the size of that number affect gains in other parts of the contract? What if pilots decide they want to transform our reserve system to a truly commutable system? What are the costs, how will those costs affect our ability to achieve our other goals? I am not trying to define down expectations, I am trying to help pilots that haven't seen this process before understand it so they can better direct their reps to represent their interests. I am trying to keep my personal feelings out of this because yours and every other pilots will be different than mine. I don't say I don't want to change reserve, I just want people to understand the effects if they do.
We all get a big laugh out of Billy Connolly's comedy piece where he says "I want it all, I want it now, I want it yesterday, and all my demands will be changed tomorrow so you better pay %^&**#$ attention." That is not a viable negotiating strategy. That is the strategy being used by the APA now and they are parked by the NMB in the penalty box. They have set high goals and had a lot of fiery rhetoric but so far they have delivered not a penny for their pilots. Perhaps you prefer to set unreachable goals and never achieve them, I prefer to get paid more money, even if it doesn't meet my lofty aspirations. My mortgage company doesn't accept aspirations.
Your argument that they can just sell their tickets for a few dollars more and pay whatever we demand shows you just aren't thinking seriously about this. The executives all have lofty bonus plans set on the profitability of the company, if they can charge a few more dollars per ticket, then why aren't they doing it now, that way they can pocket all that money for themselves.
What we do want to do is to help the industry pattern bargain their way forward. As the costs rise across the industry, then every airline needs to raise their prices and there will be no cost disadvantage for anyone. Unfortunately, right now we have Southwest with a decent contract and we have Continental with a real shot at improving their contract. Until the APA sets some more realistic goals, they will achieve nothing. The Airways pilots will not achieve anything in the near future and United has little hope in the near future absent consolidation. If you don't think the market matters, why don't you talk to someone trying to sell their house right now in Miami or Phoenix. The market matters despite your manliness.
Pontificate all you want. Your type of rhetoric will do nothing to move the ball forward. You might feel better about yourself but you will accomplish nothing.
04-24-2010, 11:21 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
If our negotiating committee shares your perspective, I doubt you will ever see anything like the buying power you had with C2K. Are you prepared to resign yourself to this profession being worth considerably less than it has traditionally been worth? Kinda sounds like it. If not, then how do you think we are ever going to get there? The simple math is that it's going to take 73%+.
04-24-2010, 11:23 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
At least you agree that there will be a finite cap to the value of the contract. Look up finite in the dictionary because I don't think you understand the meaning of the word. Finite does not mean small and it does not mean what we have now.
Look, Capn, I will guarantee you that I have spent thousands (yes thousands) of hours more than you sitting in a strike center trying to help rally the leverage of the power of the pilot group to make the pie bigger. I don't really need any lectures from you about toughness or pushing management. Been there, done that, got the coffee mug to prove it.
If we are going to achieve our goals, the pilots need to understand the process as well as possible so we can work in a systematic fashion to achieve our goals. One part of that process is establishing a priority system for setting those goals. If you agree that a billion dollars per hour pay rate for a whale is probably not going to fly, and if you agree that minimum wage is not going to fly, then you have to decide on a figure somewhere between those two. How do you arrive at that number? How does the size of that number affect gains in other parts of the contract? What if pilots decide they want to transform our reserve system to a truly commutable system? What are the costs, how will those costs affect our ability to achieve our other goals? I am not trying to define down expectations, I am trying to help pilots that haven't seen this process before understand it so they can better direct their reps to represent their interests. I am trying to keep my personal feelings out of this because yours and every other pilots will be different than mine. I don't say I don't want to change reserve, I just want people to understand the effects if they do.
We all get a big laugh out of Billy Connolly's comedy piece where he says "I want it all, I want it now, I want it yesterday, and all my demands will be changed tomorrow so you better pay %^&**#$ attention." That is not a viable negotiating strategy. That is the strategy being used by the APA now and they are parked by the NMB in the penalty box. They have set high goals and had a lot of fiery rhetoric but so far they have delivered not a penny for their pilots. Perhaps you prefer to set unreachable goals and never achieve them, I prefer to get paid more money, even if it doesn't meet my lofty aspirations. My mortgage company doesn't accept aspirations.
Your argument that they can just sell their tickets for a few dollars more and pay whatever we demand shows you just aren't thinking seriously about this. The executives all have lofty bonus plans set on the profitability of the company, if they can charge a few more dollars per ticket, then why aren't they doing it now, that way they can pocket all that money for themselves.
What we do want to do is to help the industry pattern bargain their way forward. As the costs rise across the industry, then every airline needs to raise their prices and there will be no cost disadvantage for anyone. Unfortunately, right now we have Southwest with a decent contract and we have Continental with a real shot at improving their contract. Until the APA sets some more realistic goals, they will achieve nothing. The Airways pilots will not achieve anything in the near future and United has little hope in the near future absent consolidation. If you don't think the market matters, why don't you talk to someone trying to sell their house right now in Miami or Phoenix. The market matters despite your manliness.
Pontificate all you want. Your type of rhetoric will do nothing to move the ball forward. You might feel better about yourself but you will accomplish nothing.
Look, Capn, I will guarantee you that I have spent thousands (yes thousands) of hours more than you sitting in a strike center trying to help rally the leverage of the power of the pilot group to make the pie bigger. I don't really need any lectures from you about toughness or pushing management. Been there, done that, got the coffee mug to prove it.
If we are going to achieve our goals, the pilots need to understand the process as well as possible so we can work in a systematic fashion to achieve our goals. One part of that process is establishing a priority system for setting those goals. If you agree that a billion dollars per hour pay rate for a whale is probably not going to fly, and if you agree that minimum wage is not going to fly, then you have to decide on a figure somewhere between those two. How do you arrive at that number? How does the size of that number affect gains in other parts of the contract? What if pilots decide they want to transform our reserve system to a truly commutable system? What are the costs, how will those costs affect our ability to achieve our other goals? I am not trying to define down expectations, I am trying to help pilots that haven't seen this process before understand it so they can better direct their reps to represent their interests. I am trying to keep my personal feelings out of this because yours and every other pilots will be different than mine. I don't say I don't want to change reserve, I just want people to understand the effects if they do.
We all get a big laugh out of Billy Connolly's comedy piece where he says "I want it all, I want it now, I want it yesterday, and all my demands will be changed tomorrow so you better pay %^&**#$ attention." That is not a viable negotiating strategy. That is the strategy being used by the APA now and they are parked by the NMB in the penalty box. They have set high goals and had a lot of fiery rhetoric but so far they have delivered not a penny for their pilots. Perhaps you prefer to set unreachable goals and never achieve them, I prefer to get paid more money, even if it doesn't meet my lofty aspirations. My mortgage company doesn't accept aspirations.
Your argument that they can just sell their tickets for a few dollars more and pay whatever we demand shows you just aren't thinking seriously about this. The executives all have lofty bonus plans set on the profitability of the company, if they can charge a few more dollars per ticket, then why aren't they doing it now, that way they can pocket all that money for themselves.
What we do want to do is to help the industry pattern bargain their way forward. As the costs rise across the industry, then every airline needs to raise their prices and there will be no cost disadvantage for anyone. Unfortunately, right now we have Southwest with a decent contract and we have Continental with a real shot at improving their contract. Until the APA sets some more realistic goals, they will achieve nothing. The Airways pilots will not achieve anything in the near future and United has little hope in the near future absent consolidation. If you don't think the market matters, why don't you talk to someone trying to sell their house right now in Miami or Phoenix. The market matters despite your manliness.
Pontificate all you want. Your type of rhetoric will do nothing to move the ball forward. You might feel better about yourself but you will accomplish nothing.
That said, depending on where we think the high point is in the pot of money, maybe we should look at a 36 month amendable date. If that does not work, how about at a min a cola or a set percentage after the PWA becomes amendable.
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