Ragtop Day

Just to make things more muddy, all these rules do not apply if you are on SC or 23K recovery, in that case your on the hook for all 16 hours. There is a nice flow chart in the "When Scheduling Calls."

LeineLodge

Contract's not in front of me, but I believe it's the normal 10 hours minimum in base until next report. Sounds to me like you are automatically back on long call at 1625 unless otherwise notified. Just sit around and wait for the phone to ring.

I haven't been able to go back through the pages to see your original question about the 17+ hour duty day, but I had this same crap a few months ago.

Basically, they can take you way over 16 hours as long as you don't "operate" a leg beyond 16 hours (beginning with your short call start time.)

There are two timelines running in parallel, and either one could determine when you turn into a pumpkin.

The scenario below is domestic only. International is a little different, and IMO much worse.

Clock number 1: Maximum FAR duty day not to exceed 16 hours. This is calculated from the start of your SC period. Based on the Whitlow letter/interpretation, you cannot be on rest while also on reserve, and you must always be able to look back and find 8 hours of rest in the preceeding 24 hours. 24-8 gives the 16 hour max duty day. Unfortunately for us, the company can get around this by DHing past 16 hours, because we are not operating a flight. Nowhere do the FAR's mention 16 hours as a hard limit, only that an operating crewmember (domestically) must be able to look back and find 8 hours rest. Clear as mud?

Clock number 2: PWA limits varying by the time of day (base time) that you REPORT. This is the key point in this whole discussion, and one that we need to clear up in the contract. A typical max duty day per the PWA is 13 (extendable by 2 hours.) Even if you are given a trip immediately upon starting SC, you will likely not hit this limit first. For example, you went on SC at 0500 and they call with a trip that reports at 0700 (which in my opinion is the earliest that you could be "reasonably available".) Add 13 hours scheduled to this and you are at 20:00, a few minor delays and you can be compelled to stay on duty until 22:00. However, your Whitlow rest must have begun by 21:00 (your previous rest ended at 0500 when SC began) so this would be your limiting factor.

UNLESS. . . . .

They DH you or put you on an international leg for the time period beyond your Whitlow lookback window; in this case 2100.

The example I gave for Clock number 2 could be much worse, as it was in your case with a 1625 report. As long as you're done operating the flights by 2100, they can DH you (or put you on an international leg as I found out) all the way to the PWA limits, which would be less than 13 hours because of the time of report, but still brutal.

This definitely needs fixing. I'm all for giving scheduling a little flexibility, but come on. It should be 16 hours period from the beginning of SC, which is getting a little long anyways. These 18, 19, 20+ hour days are abusive, whether you're DHing around or not - the DH is sometimes more fatiguing than operating the flight.

Anyways, glad it worked out for you.

Oh, and I got the expected and unwanted answer to the pay question we were talking about regarding the longevity step. I'll try to send you a PM when I get a chance. I'm still looking into it, but it's not looking good.

forgot to bid

D. Maximum Scheduled Duty Time
1. An international category pilot on a duty period composed solely of domestic or intratheatre
flying, and a domestic category pilot will not be scheduled to be on duty in excess
of the duty time in the table below:

*Report Maximum Scheduled Duty Time
0700 - 1259 13 hours
1300 - 2059 13 hours, reduced by 1 minute for each 2 minutes between 1300and report
2100 - 2359 9 hours
0000 - 0059 9 hours reduced by ½ minute for each minute between 0000 and report
0100 - 0259 8 hours 30 minutes
0300 - 0359 8 hours 30 minutes increased by ½ minute for each minute between 0300 and report
0400 - 0459 9 hours increased 3 minutes for each minute between 0400 and report
0500 - 0659 12 hours increased by ½ minute for each minute


Maximum Scheduled Duty Time (12 D.)
The maximum scheduled duty time for a pilot is based upon the type of flying being
performed (domestic, intra-theater, deadheading or ocean crossing), report time (for
domestic and intra-theater) and whether the flight crew is augmented.
The contractual maximum duty day is a scheduling limitation. You may be extended by up
to two hours due to a reroute or irregular operations. If rerouted in a deadhead-only duty
period, the two hour duty day extension does not apply. See WSC page 20-25 for additional
information.

Flight Time Limitations (12 E.)
The maximum scheduled block time for an international category pilot in a trans-oceanic
duty period is:
a) Eight hours on a two-pilot aircraft with a non-augmented crew
b) Up to 12 hours on a two-pilot aircraft if the crew is augmented with a relief First
Officer or on a three-pilot aircraft.
c) In excess of 12 hours block time in a trans-oceanic duty period if the flight crew is
augmented with a relief crew.

Note: Flight time limits for other types of operations are established by the FARs.

satchip

Hey FTB, any bets on who goes first, an Alabama player or an Auburn player?

Denny Crane

I stand corrected and will change my post!!

Denny

johnso29

No. I started SC @ 0500 & was assigned the trip @ 1510 for a 1625 report. Doesn't matter because 1) The trip was removed & remained with the original crew 2)Apparently SC isn't duty time. This is another step backwards in workrules for DAL N pilots. Our SC did count as duty time, & I think it should be changed.

NuGuy

Not to turn this into another "NWA vs DAL" thing again, but this is a case where the appearance of one was weighed in versus the reality of the other.

In the NWA PWA domestically, it was a 13 hours scheduled duty day, and a HARD 14 hour duty day, in all cases, every time. Block, reserve, rescheduled, deadhead or not. If the clock struck 14, or WAS going to strike 14 before departure (duty + scheduled block + checkout), then you walked.

While the DAL seems to pay lip service to the TCL with reduced duty times, the NWA PWA provided simiar protection with no "tag on" after redeye flying.

Now it seems that if you are on reserve, or get rescheduled, the PWA offers no real protection other than calling in fatigued.

But we got a pay rate raise, so I guess that makes it ok...never mind. Guess all that glitters is not gold.

Nu

acl65pilot

It would have been an illegal paring if it was a turn. Because it was a DH it is legal.

Remember that your last flight assignment must end at 15+30 and then 30 mis for duty out. This is what I look at on SC.

Say I start at 0500, the latest I can operate a revenue flight (block in) is +15+30 from this time or 2030+30 to get to 16 hrs or the Whitlow limitation. This will give you your 24 hr look back for eight hrs of rest.
16+8=24.

Keep in mind that for Flag operations this does not apply. You could get called out in your last minute of 24 hr SC for a trip to TLV and be legal.

buzzpat

You guys crack my **** up. Nice to have a change of pace, since I've been writing all day.

acl65pilot

Agreed, and it appears that maybe some of the next DCI contract will pay more than our rates on these jets. Time will tell.